Gibraltar prides itself for being a tolerant society and so it is, with all the emphasis on the word "tolerance". We have a habit of tolerating but not being inclusive. It is a society that tolerates minorities by turning a partial blind eye to obvious inequalities in treatment. The obvious example is Gibraltar's Moroccan brethren and friends who have so helped during Gibraltar's dark days when it was deprived of Spanish labour and who continue to help the community at large.
Legalities are not necessarily what this issue is about or what I will deal with in this blog. Affordability is not what it is about either. It is a subject about human treatment of a minority community that has helped so much. It is about giving to that minority group full integration, inclusion, acceptance and equal recognition and ceasing to take them for granted, for example, the ability to live with one's wife and children in decent accommodation. Also to have their applications for naturalisation dealt with promptly, fairly and with a positive attitude.
I can hear the screams of protest as I type this blog. These screams say: there is not enough physical space, are we to provide more housing on top of what is built for the Gibraltarian, the cost will be prohibitive. Unfortunately these complaints may be valid and have a basis but their very foundation is a selfish desire to provide for ourselves that which we will not provide to the Moroccan community. In this way the Moroccan community is disadvantaged in order not to reduce the ability of Gibraltar's government to provide better lives for Gibraltarians partly funded by the tax revenues paid by the Moroccan community.
The discrimination against Moroccans is palpable and obvious. It does Gibraltar no credit to ignore it for any longer. It is not commensurate with but rather belies the description that Gibraltar is a tolerant society. It is more akin to a society that "puts up with" a minority group rather than tolerates them in the wider and more acceptable sense of that word. Gibraltar needs to change. The economic cost of that change will need to be managed in order to mitigate the effect on the community at large. For example, just the housing aspect could have the beneficial side effect of renovating the older more slum-like parts of Gibraltar: something which, if memory serves me right, the GSD Government said they would do many years ago.
Absolutely agree that the GSD should by now have tackled the Upper Town slums, which is where most Moroccans live - something they've been promising to do for the past 14 years. Also agree that Moroccan Gibraltar-belongers' situation should be regularised, but Gibraltar is simply too small to allow them to bring family members over. Where do you draw the line? Brothers and sisters? Parents? Grandparents? Some of them have multiple wives and therefore multiple families. Could we possibly cope if we relaxed restrictions? Would this not open the floodgates? There are already Moroccans here illegally - but should we grant them an amnesty? Despite the current Government constantly reminding us that we are the fifth most prosperous nation on earth we are, in reality, a small town of only 28,000 with severe constraints on housing, education, health care, social services etc. By all means regularise those that helped us out when the Spanish workers were withdrawn by Franco and have been here for decades. But if we relax the rules on bringing in any more than (one) immediate family how will our infrastructure cope?
ReplyDeleteDear Llanito World
ReplyDeleteThe reason why we have a moroccan problem lies squarely with the present administration. They should have been shipped out as soon as their working contracts had concluded, including wives and children. Gibraltar cannot afford to keep and financial support these immigrants.
Also, the Government should stop granting entry visas to the children of these workers as they are not returning after the summer holidays. Perhaps, this might be a good time to start refusing visas.
Mark
ReplyDeleteWe should all build a Mons Calpe and ship them back to Tangiers! The next thing I will hear is that names such as Abdul, Mohammed and Fatima are typical Gibraltarian names.
A concerned citizen
The comments of the last two Anonymous commentators betray what I have feared, namely the total lack of tolerance of some and the true feelings towards fellow human beings.
ReplyDeleteI wander what would have happened if the UK British had had the same feelings towards the Italian and other immigrants who are our ancestors. Would there have been so may Gianni's from whom our own culture, language and descriptive name has evolved?
Close the door to new arrivals but regularise fully those already here?
ReplyDeleteWhy allow a Mosque on the southern end of Gib?
ReplyDeleteTo mark Tarik Ibn Ziyad's landing in 711?
Fred says:
ReplyDeleteLW, I fear that you are going to see a splurge of racism and Islamophobia come your way. I will make a couple of points and then crawl behind the sandbags.
My main point is that we need a plan, that balances humanity and practicalities, regardless of how difficuly this will prove to be. Closing the door to all (not just Moroccan) new arrivals may be a start.
Ah, to have the wisdom of Solomon...
The gentleman who asked about "typical Gibraltarian names" may wish to open the telephone directory and acquaint himself with names such us: Ben-Sadon, Ben-Yunes, Ben-Zaquen, Ben-Rimo, etc. Change the "ben" for "ibn" and you'll have a clearer idea. A check of DNA may also be in order.
Or are we going to be like some in places like Salamanca who deny 700 years of Arab blood and refer to Andalusians as "Africans" in a disparaging manner?
I agree that there are practical considerations, but so much more could have been done as regards housing. However, the GSD plan seems to be to turn pre-war housing stock into plush accomodation for the better-off. Take for example "El Cuartel" in Town Range. I fear the Upper Town area is destined for similar treatment, but at present is a convenient "holding area" for "social cases" and Moroccans - the "undesirables".
Moroccans are not the only sectors of our community with "illegal" members...
The mosque is an interesting point. It was built by the Al-Sauds, who seem to take every opportunity to spread their reactionary and puritan version of Islam backed by petro-dollars. This probably explains why many Moroccans decline to use it on a regular basis, given that Wahabbi Islam sits at odds with the Sufi infused practices in Morocco. However, a word of caution. FDI into Morocco is dominated by Gulf money (UAE, Qatar, Saudi, Kuwait) and this may come with subtle demands for greater orthodoxy. The moderate Moroccan community in Gibraltar may well prefer to stay where they are for reasons of religious and political freedom. Again, not the first community to want this.
Anon 1.14 makes the most sense to me. Due to international pressure I see it inevitable that we will have to regularise those already here with no more allowed in. But I fear that this will be almost impossible to administer, police and enforce as there are quite a number of illegals here already. Employers willingly hire them and turn a blind eye. Only last week four Moroccans were arrested and one of them was illegal. It seems all too easy for them to enter Gib illegally. How many are already here illegally?
ReplyDeleteThe problem is that they will not purchase some of the many private-sector luxury flats that lie empty; they want Government housing. There are already a number of foreigners (not Moroccans) occupying precious housing in the shared-equity Government estates. Some have bent the rules in order to live there e.g. they already owned a property and were therefore not eligible to purchase in these lower-cost shared equity estates - so they merely transferred the title of the property they already owned to a close relative so that they could rent that one out and live in the new place.
Some of the ones I mentioned above come from further afield, such as Pakistan, India etc. But Morocco is just next door. If they receive the signal that Gibraltar has relaxed its rules imagine how many relatives and friends will try and make it to our shores. In addition to housing mentioned above, how will our already stretched education, health and social services cope?
I just that we really have to think this through very, very carefully. There has to be a thorough consultation with all sectors of society. This is one that the Government cannot decide on its own.
Thank you Fred and Mark for your very measured and informative contributions. You raise interesting points. I agree the whole issue needs careful consideration and attention.
ReplyDeleteI am really excited to see how the debate develops but one point can we really have one immigration policy for the rich and wealthy and not deal with personal deficiencies of immigrants that have been with us for so long? Illegals do not come into this debate. They need to be dealt with differently and strictly in accordance with the law.
To anonymous @ 20:37 & anonymous @ 20:57
ReplyDeleteGo stand by the frontier every morning and watch the many economic migrants.
How many Spanish workers work here illegally as domestic cleaners, carers, painters, tillers, etc? Do they support the economy? They don’t even pay income tax.
How many UK workers, although work here legally and reside in Spain, used false or old local addresses to obtain free schooling in Gibraltar. Their children are taking up much needed space in our classrooms, using our resources, studying in university with grants paid by us. Is that okay? Why, because those children are called John & Mary? How many of them pay schooling fees to the Government?
At least the Moroccan community live in Gibraltar and support the local economy.
I agree the Moroccan Community should be regularised and perhaps close the doors to future entrants until we can provide for them. I also believe they need to meet us halfway and integrate themselves more into the Community, but then so should other religious groups, like, for example, the Jewish Community, but that is for a completely different blog!
Hi Llanito World
ReplyDeleteWell done on your blog looking at different issues of the day; it is interesting to read opinions of a different nature to those often found in the local press or on our airwaves.
Regarding our Moroccan colleagues who have been here for 40+ years, in my opinion they should have officially been regarded as local and Gibraltarian a long time ago. After all, they have spent the best part of their lives here, living, interacting and contributing to society.
I am unconvinced that granting this group of people Gibraltarian citizenship would cause a cataclysmic melt down in public services and housing. After all, as we know, many have children born in Gibraltar who are considered Gibraltarian. These people are already cared for and form part of the Gibraltarian scene. Is it really that much of a hardship for our community to show some integrity and grant these people local citizenship in recognition of the many years spent toiling away here?
The young Gibraltarian of Moroccan descent is rightly treated as just one other by the rest of their peers. Obviously different customs and second language compared to what many may be used to locally but so what?
We as a community have a moral debt to repay this group of individuals who helped keep Gib going during some very tough years. They were never supposed to be here for the long term, true. But stay they did, all the time paying their dues.
This was a topic that should have been avoided. For every lilly livered liberal do gooder, there is a right wing xenohobe, even in our dear Gibraltar. Moroccans understand this because in Islam monorities are not treated with equality. Unfortnately liberal laws of the type enacted in UK are the best argument for not allowing Moroccans equal rights (sadly so) here because they allow immigrants to bring in their relatives. This would lead to a demographic change in the polulation of Gibraltar (which has traditionally been European and Christian with small minority components) which no one in their right mind would find acceptable.
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous at 10:41, you have just given the best reason for the topic to be raised, that people with such bigoted views should have the right to express their selfish views towards other human being. How unchristian can one be, it is difficult to imagine. Please do not tell me that you are a Catholic, or there again you may be one of those that harps back to the crusades!
ReplyDeleteAnd ... thank you for labeling me (and a few others here) as lilly livered liberals and as not being in our right minds. I will take this as a complement for my free thinking humane views ... and christian views despite not being a practicing catholic.
Fred says:
ReplyDeleteLW, it is all about being measured and I must say that some of that has been lacking from a couple of commentators off late.
LW, "Anonymous 10:33" makes one very good point, and so do you: this is not just about the "brown faces". And the fact that others have only referred to Moroccans, Pakistanis, etc may suggest a bias.
I also like Anonymous 10:33's reference to integration, and whole-heartedly agree with him. However, such integration must rest on a common understanding and secular inderstanding of human rights that is then reflected in our approach to race, sex, gender, mental illness, disability, etc.
This is why tolerance is a pernicious concept in which the tolerant are somehow putting up with something that they find distasteful to their senses. Tolerance is not enough, acceptance is, but we saw how on the debate on sex sectors of our community are not even tolerant.
As an aside, I would say that we should refrain the Jewish communities shift to orthodoxy at this point. In any case I have had heard it said that a certain rabbi said that if Catholics returned to being more Catholic then integration would be easier. Another shift to the Right! God help us!
Honney Bee says..
ReplyDeleteI`d like to be able to say that I`m shocked by some of the comments posted, but I`m not and it appears that at least some of us are "tolerant" as long as the Morrocan community know their place and serve their purpose - then we can ship them out again. Unbelieveable !
It`s about time that we recognised the contribution that the long standing community has made to the Gibraltar we know today by treating them with a bit more respect and dignity in accordance with Human Rights.
Without wishing to generalise we`ve become a nation of "I`m alright Jack`s" with little regard for anything other than the euros in our pockets and (imaginary)shorter frontier queues.
In answer to Llanito world: I am not a Christian but think that Europe has benefitted from Christianity and think that it would be a disaster for all concerned if the demographics of Gibraltar were to change. The speed with which you have called me a bigot - 9 minutes - reminds of Gordon Brown`s reaction to the old lady who dared to mention immigration last week. Let us have a debate by all means but let us try to keep it on an intellectual plane. Emotive language and accusing those who do not agree with trendy political correctness of bigotry is not the way to go.
ReplyDelete... But it is certainly the way to stimulate debate!
ReplyDeleteFred says:
ReplyDeleteIn a slight defenec of Anonymous 10:41 I would say that he cannot be blamed for equating Islam with the "Right-wing" (Saud/Takfiri/Salafi/Wahhabi and Khomeineist in the Shi'a camp) that currently dominates political-Islam.
However, I do think he should inform himself better about Ithna-Ashari, Ja'afaris, Ismailis, Ahmadis, Allawites, Sufi, on the Shi'a side and about the distinctions between the four schools of jurisprudential Sunni Islam before commenting. Islam is not a monolith. His orthodox bias only allows him to see other hard orthodoxy.
Also, seeing as he is so in favour of minorities I would like him to speak out in defence of the LGBT community.
Fred says:
ReplyDeleteI think many are agreeing that the long-standing Moroccan community, who in cases have Gibraltarian children, should be afforded greater rights. Goodstuff Paco, HoneyBee et al. We have a debt of honour to pay.
Anon 10.33 (can we have names or pseudonyms please - am tiring of responding to so many different Anons)
ReplyDeleteYou make a good point about the many UK workers who live in La Linea and provide our Education Dept with false addresses so that their kids can go to school here for free. This opens up a whole can of worms, I know: there are also the many Gibraltarians who live in Sotogrande, Guadiaro etc who provide Gibraltar 'addresses' for voting and school purposes too; the Brits how don't live here - or even in the vicinity but who have managed to obtain Gib ID cards - the list is endless.
So why pick on the Moroccans? Not picking on them at all. It's just that their country is just next door. A number of them are already here illegally and many more would love to come in given half a chance. By all means we should regularise those that have served us for decades - but remember that they have a family, or families if they have more than one wife. Where do we draw the line in deciding how many family members to allow in to Gib to live here.
Paco
Sure, there will not be a "cataclysmic meltdown" in public services but just look at the choatic traffic situation, the large class sizes, the housing waiting lists, the long wait to see a doctor at either the PCC or A&E. Would Gibraltar be able to cope with the influx of, say, a couple of thousand relatives of Moroccans living here?
Anon 10.41
You also made the point about relatives. That, I think, is the crux of the matter which is why I stress that the Government has to consult widely with all sectors of the community and think very, very carefully about how to proceed on this hot issue.
Fred
"LGBT" community?
Dear Llanito World
ReplyDeleteIf you lived next to a Moroccan family I am sure you would move out the next day. If any of your bloggers are advocating tolerence then you should experience living next to them and then profess tolerence. For me I will advocate for expulsion.
Gibraltar is now seeing a rise in crime at the hands of those decendants of moroccan immigrants who came to Gibraltar during the 1970's. By allowing there children to be born in Gibraltar and allow them to remain here for the first 10 years of their lives we have allowed them the ability to apply for British Citizenship via Section 15(4) of the British Nationality Act 1981. So many thanks Joe Bossano for allowing them to have their children in GIbraltar. Now we are stuck with them for life.
We do not need tolerence we need an Act of Parliament to send them packing!
A consent citizen
from Anon 10:31 to Anon 11:34
ReplyDeleteJoe Bossano didn't allow them to have their children here, the British Nationality Act introduced the new law that children obtained nationality from their parents and not from their place of birth. These children were free to be born here at no risk to the British Government in having to convey British Nationality in the first instance.
However, there was an additional clause in the BNA (which you quote as section 15-4) which allowed them and any non british child born on british soil anywhere in the world, the right to apply for british nationality if they could prove they had spent the last 10 years in the place of their birth, in this case Gibraltar. This they would have to do with school and nursery records, baby health visitor records, etc. In addition to this,they also had to prove the child had not spent more than 90 days away from Gibraltar in one calendar year.
This is the Law, of which we are so proud off when we hold up our section 5 certificates to prove we are British Citizens, yet we ignore the sections that allow others to do the same.
Perhaps, if they weren't treated as animals, they wouldn't act so.
We are a very different Gibraltar to that of the 1970's and 80's.
We have become 'a pila de agua bendita' to many different people, providing jobs, education, health services, residence, low tax and a good standard of living. Has it made a better Gibraltar? Would we have survived otherwise? If we are going to deny the Moroccan Community their rights, perhaps we should move onto other sections too.
Anonymous who describes him or herself as a "consent" citizen may have allowed him or herself to be influenced by such lilly-livered liberals as LW. I mean, why stop at "sending them packing"? That will surely take some time, even for the least lilly-livered government. Why not make them all wear a yellow cresent on their clothing, just to make sure no "innocent" (but dark-skinned) Gibraltarian is sent off? And why not have them ring a bell as they walk through the street, to signal their approach to the blind or the distracted? Mayby anonymous of 02.05.2010 11.00 hrs would agree, as (s)he resents being called a bigot but considers any change in Europe's demographics would be disasterous to our christianity-based culture! Wouldn't Fernando and Isabel have agreed with that?
ReplyDeleteSurely Gibraltar owes a debt of gratitude to the Moroccan community who came to its help in its hour of need? Surely honouring that debt of gratitude would be the most consistent course with Gibratar's heritage, a place where people of assorted origins settled and made a community, a predominantly catholic population whose most significant political leader was jewish? And surely young people of Moroccan origin (whom it is artifical to describe as Moroccan) are more likely to become the productive participants in Gibraltarian life that they can be if they are fully welcomed by the rest of the Rock, rather than merely tolerated?
I agree with 'Consent Citizen'. If some of our esteemed Politicians including the author of this blog lived in close proximity to some of these people, I am certain they would hold radically different views over the issue of tolerence with regard Moroccans.
ReplyDelete"just look at the choatic traffic situation, the large class sizes, the housing waiting lists, the long wait to see a doctor at either the PCC or A&E. Would Gibraltar be able to cope with the influx of, say, a couple of thousand relatives of Moroccans living here?"
ReplyDeleteHi Mark. I understand your concerns but I think that the problems that you have highlighted above have deeper causes that will not be further exacerbated by granting these workers local status. These people are already here and so are already contribute to our traffic problems, housing lists and hospital waiting times. Their extended families are already in many cases Gibraltarian because they were born here.
To echo the sentiments of some other posters above, I think that it would be prudent to look at the criteria for granting other non-resident family members Gib citizenship. This approach however should not discriminate against those Moroccan workers who have formed part of Gibraltar's fabric for the best part of half a century.
The irony is that these people visibly make better use of Gibraltar's public spaces and act like citizens of Gib than many traditionally "local" Gibraltarians do. Walk along the piazza during any evening and you will see many Moroccan families peacefully enjoying the surroundings under the watchful gaze of John Mackintosh, one of our truly great Gibraltarians. Many such families reside in the heart of town whereas the "local" Gibraltarian will have long taken the opportunity to move into a new housing development outside the city walls.
Therefore, which group to the untrained eye do you think would appear more like true citizens of Gibraltar by dint of where they reside and how they behave in their environment?
"A Consent Citizen" 11.34- Could it be that you just happen to have a poor neighbour? I have had Moroccan neighbours in the past and like all neighbours, some were better than others. Indeed, I have had English neighbours, some of whom were as appalling in behaviour as others were enchanting. In my opinion, nationality doesn't come into it but basic decency and respect for each other are certainly important for good neighbourly relations.
We can start helping our Moroccans by removing the racist in the Civil Status and Registratin Office. Or maybe Caruana wants her there do do the dirty work for him.
ReplyDeleteIf you speak to many of the Moroccans, the only reason they want a British passport is to be able to cross the frontier to get to the ferry terminal at Algeciras.
ReplyDeleteDear Patrick,
ReplyDeleteAnd ...?
Honney Bees says..
ReplyDeleteMark ... please forgive me if I`m wrong here but your post of 10.04 appears to suggest that the situation (with the long standing community) will be regularised because of "international pressure" as opposed to our having a conscience and doing it of our own accord because it`s the right thing to do. We cannot pretend to be a mature democracy which subscribes to Human Rights but then go on to ignore them.
You also suggest that ..
"The problem is that they will not purchase some of the many private-sector luxury flats that lie empty; they want Government housing."
Again ..forgive me if I`m getting the wrong end of the stick here but
(a) most middle income Gibraltarians cannot afford the luxury flats you are referring to. Where does that leave the Moroccan community ?
(b)since the early 70`s their taxes have part funded every govt housing project that has gone up..and that includes the 50/50 schemes. Why should they have been expected to contribute to something that they were barred from benefitting from ?
I totally agree that there will have to be very careful thought on how to deal with non resident extended family members so as to avoid in an influx - something we cannot afford. But the present community is already here and so the argument for extra pressure on public services etc, is to my mind not applicable.
You all comment as if you trace your genetic roots in Gibraltar to pre-neanderthal times. Haven't we all washed up upon this shores at some point in time? Surely we were migrants then?
ReplyDeleteCorrect so what you must conclude is that the long standing Moroccan community of Gibraltar should be treated the same as the British treated us in the past, surely?
ReplyDeleteI would rather have a Moroccan family as my neighbours than some Gibraltarian families and anyway, if you have problems with your neighbours, there are laws to protect you...just call he police.
ReplyDeleteWhy hasn't any Moroccan been granted the new Medallion of Honour (or has he)? Why are all sectors of the community (Jews, Christian, Hindus)represented as JPs, but no Moroccans? I can go on......
Get real ... where would Gibralar be today if they hadn't come to help us out. We owe the Moroccans more than we owe anyone else (including the UK Govt who on many occassions have tried to sell us out).
The Moroccan commnity are probably more deserving of the Freedom of the City of Gibraltar than other holders of the honour.
Any Moroccan who has worked in Gibraltar for a non-stop period of 10 years should be granted British Nationality for himself, his wife and children immediately. Oh and by the way, whats all this business about having more than one wife? What are you talking about? I think you will find that that is not permitted in Morocco.
Dear Whoever you are, I did not obtain my British Citizenship through Section 5 BNA 1981 like you did. I was born a British Citizen as of right under the 1948 Act unlike you and the vast majority of Colonial Gibraltarians. Perhaps you could trace back you origins and see that your grandfathers and grandmothers (those born in Gibraltar prior to 1948) were classed as a Native of Gibraltar. Needless to say I could not live with that label.
ReplyDeleteThe Civil Status and Registration Office do sterling work at controlling the Moroccans coming in their hundreds and hope the same team remains. Keep up the Good Work
Dear Patrick / Llanito World
ReplyDeleteThat is exactly what the Moroccan deception is all about, when they say that "they want to become British Citizen through naturalisation to ensure passage to Tangiers through Spain."
Once they become British Citizen the next thing is that we will have their 6 wives with their 20 children arriving at our shores asking us for medical care, education and all other rights and privledges. Our economy cannot allow that to happen.
Gibcrier's comments are fundamentally flawed. Imagine having Mohamed bring along his wife and children after spending 10 years in
Gibraltar. Complete chaos. I am not racist, but each to their own. I
Concerned Citizen formerly Consent Citizen
Anon 12.18 (can we use names or pseudonyms please - much easier). Sorry, forgot what I was going to respond to you. I get confused with so many Anons. Maybe it was another Anon and not the 12.18 one but even then I can't remember. Please can we used names or pseudonyms. Much easier.
ReplyDeleteGibcrier: Not permitted to have more than one wife in Morocco? I think you'll find that muslims are permitted to have up to four wives; as many as they can afford up to a maximum of four.
"racist in the Civil Status and Registration Office?" - that's a pretty serious accusation which has not been substantiated.
"just call the police if neighbours give any trouble"! Come on. It's not nearly as easy as that unless you want aggro with your neighbours on a daily basis. Let's face it.
Paco
I think you'll find that part of their immediate and extended families are over there in Morocco and would give anything to come and live here. A number do come over illegally and children overstay their family visit visas, forcing the Government to tighten the rules. That's not racism; it's the law.
Honey Bee
Moroccans are not barred from purchasing in the shared equity estates, as far as I am aware. Others from further afield such as Pakistan have done so and Pakistan is not part of the EU. The only requirement is that you must have resided in Gibraltar for a period of at least three years.
The real impact will be on Government rental housing and we all know that. So fine, let's regularise all those Moroccan Gibraltar belongers together with their immediate relatives. I am, in principle, in favour of that for humanitarian reasons, of course. But think of the following:
The Chief Minister recently said on GBC that this could result in an influx of 6,000 or 7,000 Moroccans. The true figure may be somewhat lower, I don't know but whatever the figure that would be fine with me. I'm not a racist and would be happy to welcome them. The question is: where do we house them all.
The new Mid Harbour rental housing estate not been completed yet and all the flats have already been allocated. And there's still a long waiting list.
Where do you suggest we build more rental housing to accommodate thousands of Moroccan Gibraltar belongers and their relatives when we regularise them? How long will it take to build them? And what do we do with the many other Gibraltarians that have been on the housing waiting list for years?
Dear Llanito Mundo
ReplyDeleteWho gives a dime about Moroccans, they cannot vote, and most cannot even speak or write english. The are good manual workers though.
How often do we see 5 Gibraltarians working along a moroccan while the Gibraltarians are looking inside a manhole the one inside working is the Moroccan.
I read that the morrocan community deserve the freedom of the city. I cannot agree more.
I am a new comentator.
ReplyDeleteif the Morrocans get passports, won't they go to live in La Linea anyway, as the rents are cheaper there... or even further afield, like Germany, UK... It is easier for them to qualify for social housing and payments in other places than it is here; even getting jobs is easier. The older Morrocans get Community Care already anyway as it is based on residence not nationality. So the loss to us is not so great. We have to face this problem; but not alone. The UK and Morrocan governments have a candle in this funeral too, as they came to help the UK and Morrocco was happy to let them come as there were no jobs in Tangier and they generated much needed foreign exchange.
Just a thought. Sometimes, thinking things through to their logical conclusion and not reacting to things based on Mr Caruana's biggoted presentation of a "problem" helps. I think the time has come for imagination to be applied to resolve this problem...
Mark-
ReplyDeleteI'm not advocating that their extended families be allowed to enter Gib without proper controls. What is unreasonable is to continue to deny them their individual claim to British citizenship. The two issues are separate and should be treated as such.
Honney Bee says...
ReplyDeleteMark
My own understanding is that there was no requirement for applicants who wanted to buy their properties outright to be on the housing list - hence the 3 year residency requirement. Those wishing to buy on the shared equity scheme however DID need to be on the list. The purpose of mentioning the shared equity scheme was to illustrate the fact that morrocan community taxes very obviously part funded a govt project to which they would not be benefitting from.
The figure you have quoted regarding how many relatives might arrive on our shores I believe to be over inflated as you yourself suggest might be the case. Many of the older generation no longer have dependant children and it would be in our interest to try and gauge what the real numbers are - before we get hauled off to the ECHR for discrimination !
The manner in which you have worded your last paragraph, to me, infers that you suggest there should be seperate housing (?)which would come at the expense of people already on the list (?). I would have thought that any new applicants would join the bottom of the list as has always been the case - there would just be a longer list.
HAMED, KEBAB CON ENSALADA Y CHILLI
ReplyDeleteThe estimate of Moroccans in Gib is less than 1500. Many are over 60 years and their children grown-ups that live and work elsewhere.
This is truly a minority group.
Many pensioners live in Morocco and only come to Gib for their pensions stay for few days.
Those here also require passports to travel.
It's about time they were given their rights and the freedom to be Gibbos/Brits or live elsewhere in Europe.
They are entitled to their freedom and liberty as much as we Gibbos were when we got it from colonial rulers eventually.
Los pimientos son parte de nosotros 'hi'
Xenophobia?
K poca verguenza tenemos 'hi'!
When I wrote at 10.41 on the 2nd May warning about allowing the type of demographic change that would occur by letting large numbers of moslems to come to Gibraltar LW accused me of being a bigot. He thought I was a Christian calling for Crusade. I replied that I was not a Christian but I have been thinkng more about the way in which brainless liberals seem so eager to lay all the woes of the world on Christianity. When I moved to Gibraltar many years ago from my country of origin (which is not a Christian country, I have to hurry to say)I was struck by the quality of life that is avaiable in Christian countries. I happen to be an atheist immigrant to Gibraltar and gay (as Fred seems to have realised). I shudder to think how my beloved country of adoption Gibraltar would treat me if it ceased being a Christian country because of allowing moslems to bring their entire families here. I think that Moroccans are good people but I do not think that many people in Gibraltar really know what Islam is all about.
ReplyDeleteHoney Bee
ReplyDeleteThere was no requirement to be on the housing waiting list to be eligible to purchase a flat in one of the shared equity estates. You must be thinking of something else, which I suspect might be the following: you were given more latitude when choosing a particular apartment if you were giving up a government rental flat - but even there you already had a government rental flat (which you were giving up) so were not on the housing waiting list.
On a another matter, I hear that local Moroccans are able to obtain Schengen visas from local EU Schengen-area honorary consulates which indeed enables them to catch the ferry to Tangier from Algeciras. Anyone know anything about this?
To the Gay and Atheist Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteIt is the persons that you disparage by calling them brainless liberals that have changed the general prejudice that existed against gays. It is these same persons who have achieved law reforms that previously marginalised gays, although there is a little way to go in Gibraltar yet.
Would you feel good if anyone suggested dealing with gays in the manner that you suggest for Moroccan or would you call them bigots? If you would call them bigots, does that not make you one as regards your views about the Moroccan community of Gibraltar or does it just make you a racist?
No one is suggesting that Gibraltar should or would became Islamic.
Have any of you bright sparks bothered to ask Moslem religious leaders what they think of the idea of moslems "integrating" into a post Christian western secularist democracy? Do any of you understand the modern day significance of the Caliphate? How may of you would like to live in a Moslem country? Do you know how Christians are treated in Egypt or the moslem areas of Nigeria or Sudan or Pakistan etc? Do you consider that moslem edicts on the treatment of women or homosexuals are accetptable? Do you know of any moslem country which enjoys social justice abnd equality? And before you answer, note that the answer to these important questions is not to call me an Islamophobe although it is true that I fear Islam because think that it is not a force for good....
ReplyDeleteMark, all non EU citizens resident in Gibraltar may apply for a Schengen visa, via a Schengen country consulate, to visit that Schengen contry. In the case of the Consulate of Italy in Gibraltar, all applications for Schengen visas to visit Italy are sent to the Italian Conslate General in London for verification that the strict conditions laid down are complied with. Only if they are, is the visa issued.
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous at 15.58:
ReplyDeleteAnd even if true, what does any of that have to do with giving the Gibraltar Moroccan community, their rights?
Dear Mark...thanks to people like Patrick who give a lot of their own time in order to allow them to live normal lives. Thanks to the Honourary Consul for Italy.
ReplyDeleteI would find it funny (were racism and Islamophobia not such serious issues) to read Gibraltarians pontificating on the dangers posed by "immigrants". These individuals should read their history...we are ALL immigrants. We ALL came from Italy, Portugal, Malta, Spain, Britain, India, Pakistan and yes, Morocco.
ReplyDeleteTo one of the Anons posting earlier - The presence of a mosque at Europa Point serves the same purpose as that of the Cathedral of St.Mary the Crowned at Main Street...to provide a place where members of our community who belong to that particular faith can go and worship.
The real danger to our community comes not from the perceived "dangers" that come from "immigrants", but from the increasingly radical and racist positions being adopted by many Gibraltarians. How sad to see members of a community once characterised by tolerance and acceptance stoop to the levels of argumentation any BNP member would be proud of.
Calpetano should brush up on his history and current affairs of other countries. Islam has never peacefully co-existed either with Christianity in the West or Hinduism & sikhism in the east. The Crusades had to be called because Moslems overrun the Holy land, North Africa (which was previously Christian) and the Iberian Pennisula. They did not come preaching peace but as a military invasion. Gibraltar is indeed an immigrant community but however much it might seem more exotic to say otherwise, Gibraltarians are predominantly European and either Christians or Jews. The best recipe for racial conflict now is for trendy folk to try to paint a different and antagonistic culture as somehow heroic. By playing those silly games you just create the conditions for resentment of moslems. I say Moslems have to be treated with respect and friendship but also great caution. Islam is not a tolerant religion and we learnt the cost of dhimmitude in this part of the world many centuries ago. It took hundreds of years to rid the Iberian peninsula and Gibraltar of Islam.
ReplyDeleteFred says:
ReplyDeleteTo Anonymous 18:46 (who may have read Patrick Sookhdeo's alarmist right-wing Christian views):
"Have any of you bright sparks bothered to ask Moslem religious leaders what they think of the idea of moslems "integrating" into a post Christian western secularist democracy?"
Yep, the views of right-wing Islamists on this matter are as repugnant to secularists as those of any other religious group.
Do any of you understand the modern day significance of the Caliphate?
Yep, it's a propaganda myth within the Takfiri "single narrative" - look it up.
How may of you would like to live in a Moslem country?
No thanks, but I do not want to live in a Christian one either.
Do you know how Christians are treated in Egypt or the moslem areas of Nigeria or Sudan or Pakistan etc?
To reduce the complex politics in these countries to religious factors is reductionist in the extreme, and only does the extremists a favour - the irony.
Do you consider that moslem edicts on the treatment of women or homosexuals are accetptable?
As unacceptable as those of the Catholic church.
Do you know of any moslem country which enjoys social justice abnd equality?
Yes, Indonesia.
Please do not underestimate the experience and knowldge of your fellow posters. And please stop lumping all Muslims as a oner. I do not like any religion, but am not going to lump them all together.
To quote Sacha Baron Cohen aka Ali G, formerly MP for West Staines- "Keep it real, people".
ReplyDeleteDon't lose sight of what we are talking about here. The original focus of this blog concerns a group of people who form part of the fabric of Gibraltar. They have mostly spent all their lives here and still aren't treated with the full respect that they deserve.
I couldn't give two hoots if they are Muslim, Christian, atheist or Jedi Knights! These are people who feel as if they belong here because they do. They've done more than enough for Gib, it is high time that they were allowed to become British citizens if that is what they want.
We aren't talking about radicals who may well have stepped out of an Afghani terrorist boot camp with an urge to blow things up. Some perspective regarding this issue would be a good thing.
Radicalism (Islamic or whatever) is fuelled by the ignorance and prejudice shown in some of the shallow comments made by some ANONS.
ReplyDeleteDidn't the prophet, discontented with life in Mecca, retreat to a cave and inspired by divine messages produced the Qu'ran?
Congratulations Fred, you must be the most self satisfied wrong headed person in Christendom. According to you most Moslems reject Islamism (although repeated studies in UK show the exact opposite). Patrick Sookhdeo (who used to be a moslem and should know what he is talking about) is an "alarmist". The Caliphate established by Mohamed himself that ruled the Arab world and large chunks of Asia and Europe for centuries was a propaganda myth. You do not want to live in a Christian country but you do and have freedoms which people in other cultures do not (including bizarrely, the freedom to talk nonsense).The burning of churches in Pakistan, Nigeria, Sudan and Egypt by islamists has nothing to do with religion. Christian holy books prescribe stoning for adulterous women, give guideance on how to beat wives and allow men to marry up to 4 women. The murderous attacks on Christians by the Islamic Defenders in the Moluccas in Indonesia is another myth. Get real Fred.
ReplyDeleteOh, I see. So Gibraltar-based Moroccans obtain Schengen visas in order to be able to visit Italy. But surely they're not going to visit Morocco via Italy when Spain is so much nearer. How can the Italian consulate in London check whether they ever actually set foot in Italy?
ReplyDeleteI thank the latest "Anon" for attempting to refresh my knowledge of history and current affairs. Unfortunately for him, as a history graduate and keen follower of current affairs, I can tell him my analysis of Islam is taken precisely from an objective reading of history and a good understanding of current affairs and not from fundamentally flawed, neo-conservative, radical Christian positions adopted after watching EWTN.
ReplyDeleteIn particular, I am concerned at this gentleman's use of the Crusades as some form of historical example of the "need" to eradicate Muslim elements when they cannot co-exist with Christians. I will not bore readers with an analysis of the Crusades and their origins here, I will simply ask Anon to brush up on HIS history instead - and to make sure of his sources (EWTN is not a good source, I'm afraid).
With positions such as Anon's, I truly fear for Gibraltar and wonder where these extremist, Christian fundamentalist teachings are coming from.
Having said all that, Paco makes a great point - this thread is about Moroccan workers, who work and live among us and who are not fresh out of Pakistani Al Qaeda camps (despite what Anon and certain local islamophobes may tell us). We have a responsibility to these people and we should not lose sight of that responsibility in the face of misplaced zealous religious propaganda.
I think its fear that drives most of our people to not want to give rights out so to speak.
ReplyDeletethe fear that we will be overrun within months by opening the floodgates.you just have to look at the example the Uk sets when it comes to immigration. it is a largely held belief that the UK is weak on its policy with immigration and their country has taken is toll as a result. its people ae pushed back to almost secondary citizen positions. something i fear would grip Gibraltar.
something that should also be taken into account is the problem with youths. the morrocan youths show no respect to anyone (i know this sounds like a generalisation but most would agree with me) can you imagine what would happen if they were given rights and more came over from morroco. people talk about the Uk residents taking our resources even though they live in spain. how can you complain about this when we are a british territory for gods sake. at least their children dont add to the bullying and crime for the most part.
to round off if they were given rights it would mean increases in segregation. which would create a similar effect to the racial tensions of the Americas during the 60's. in a more primitive manner we would lose our land and our individuality. current 'Gibraltarians' would be extinct.
i am sick and tired of all these pansy liberals and their dreams of a utopian world.
ReplyDeletewake up my friends!
the way some of you post here would make an outsider think that these morrocans in gibraltar are all martyrs!!
what do they give to our community? yes they work here, and pay the tax that they are forced to pay. but do they provide anything other than that? do they invest in property? do they spend money in shops, bars and restaurants thus making our commerce and economy flourish?.
the answer is no, they dont. all they do is save up money so that come their retirement they can go back to their palace in morroco and live like kings over there.
an interesting trend to develop over the last few years is what id described on other cities as ghettos.
ReplyDeletea walk around city mill lane / town range / upper town at night makes it plainly obvious, and worringly so, that the young morrocan community are marginalised from society. (whether this is voluntary or not i do not know)
this in turn has led to an increase in Knife crime, assaults and burglaries/thefts/robberies. to all those of you who think Gibraltar is cukooland, think again. open your eyes and take a trip down the magistrates court on any given day and you will see what Gibraltar really is becoming.
only last week 5 morrocan youths (i say youths in fact they were aged between 10 and 14 appeared in court in an alleged homophobic attack. (this was actually reported in the local media but not given the headlines it actually deserved.)
anyways, my question is, will giving morrocan's more rights help to alleviate this phenomenon or will it make the problem worse? what do the sociologists say? and more importantly what do the people of Gibraltar fell about what is occuring?
it is about time we stopped turning a blind eye to what is plainly obvious! for if the situation continues it is a matter time before what was once hailed as being the safest of communties becomes a far cry from what it once was.
"Gibraltar prides itself for being a tolerant society and so it is"... As a Gibraltarian I too was proud to be part of a diverse, multicultural and seemingly accepting society.
ReplyDeleteAfter having read the comments left by some of my compatriots, my pride has been swiftly replaced with shame. How sad it has been to read people's blatantly racist views.
I grew up alongside these people and their children, as any other Gibraltarian of my generation will have, and I have never viewed "them" as anything other than a part of our community. I would gladly have them be legally recognised as such and I really do hope that this is the view of the "average" Gibraltarian - regardless of their religion, colour or background. If that makes me a "lily livered liberal" then I'll carry that label with pride.
Where there is a will there is a way and I'm sure it can be done. It is a just a matter of working out logistics and making fair (to the Moroccan AND wider community)and justified decisions - Insha'allah.
This article published by The Guardian last year may also be of interest:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/mar/28/work-discrimination-gibraltar-morroco
and from Unite:
http://www.unitetheunion.com/news__events/latest_news/gibraltars_moroccan_workers.aspx
The question is: Where can one find a similar article written by our local press?????
To Lily-livered liberal and Calpetano
ReplyDeleteIt seems that I have uncovered a very unchristian Gibraltar by bringing up this subject or perhaps it is very christian if the Crusades are still what we are about!
As to the local press not writing about the issue yes ... its only here that it seems to have been raised and look at the reaction! Although in fairness Unite have started the ball rolling.
If I go to Morocco I am expected to comply with their rules and respect their culture above all. When a group of foster parents associated to a Gibraltarian charity were given 24 hours to leave Morocco for allegedly proclaiming the Gospel in defiance of Koranic law, I cannot remember any of the shrill hand wringing (oh me oh my, ay madre mia)liberals in this forum complain (insha'allah or at all). Poor old Calpetano says he has a history degree and thinks that the rest of us get our history from the US religious channel EWTN! I do not doubt that he has a history degree because in many old politechnics now universities which you can get into with very bad A level results, history has been hijacked by political correctness and the stupidest notion of modern time "the celebration of diversity": Jihad OK, Crusades baaaad! In that perverse world view, Greek science and philosophy are said to be Moslem (they tell us without even blushing that the Arabs of the 7th century taught the Greeks themselves about Plato Aristotle and Socrates)that the Austrians were wrong to stop the moslem hoardes at the gates on Vienna, the Greeks nad Armenians should not have expelled their Ottoman oppressors, the Maltese and the Knight's Templar's heroic defeat of the Turkish fleet sent to conquer Rome was a disgrace; the Reconquista of Spain and Our beloved Gibraltar, and the battle of Lepanto ditto. Then LW appears to equate Christainity with surrender. Well boys, I do not care what you say in the privacy of your own homes but El Maravilla and Carlito are right, you seem to be operating in some form of half educated, liberal dreamland. No offence meant. (Calpetano, if I were you I would ask your university for a refund of your tuition fees, I am sure there is a law against selling fake degrees)
ReplyDeleteTo the last Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteWhy are you so scared to reveal your identity?
Why don't you answer my comment about how you would feel about people expressing about gays views similar to those expressed by you about Islam?
Don't you think you are exaggerating the issue which is about a limited number of Moroccans into a crusade against all of the Islamic faith as if Gibraltar was to become the starting place of a new Islamic invasion of Europe? Have a look around Europe and see reality the small numbers in Gibraltar are not going to make any difference. You are clearly so prejudiced it is unbelievable.
I think you have had your say so this lilly livered liberal is going to act like a fascist pig and moderate any of your future comments out on the grounds that you are employing insulting language and becoming personal ,,, but more to the point you are just being BORING and REPETITIVE now.
Hi Carlito:
ReplyDeleteIs it not marginalisation that has created the problem? Is it not a problem that can start to be resolved by inclusion? Is this not the UK experience after the rioting of the early 1980's? Is the solution to deny people their rights? Are there no Gibraltarian criminals? I suggest that you will discover there are on the visit you suggest to the Magistrates Court, certainly a visit to the prison will tell you.
Continuing the present policies will worsen the problem. It will not alleviate it. The young Moroccans that you refer to are likely to be British Citizens or entitled to that citizenship.
Thank For your reply LW. I was simply asking the questions, as much as i would like to i am in no position to answer them. perhaps the sociologists and criminologists of this world may assist.
ReplyDeletemy concern is that inclusion and integration may not be the answer to the problem, as by definition, due the the cultural and racial differences they marginalise themselves!
will inclusion therefore simply increase these ghettos? that is my concern.
I wonder if "Anonymous" is being true to his Christian roots by insulting me, or whether watching EWTN has made him into another of our resident armchair Christian fundamentalists who think all Islam is evil (along with homosexuals, atheists, secularists and those of us who criticise Catholic priests who abuse children).
ReplyDeleteWhilst I hardly see the need to enter a debate on the merits of my degree here, I will assure this "Anon" gentleman that mine is not a fake degree, and was obtained from one of the top three universities in the UK after 4 years' hard work. I wonder where he gets his reading of history from? The BNP? Or in some other dark recess of his "half-educated", neo-conservative, Christian fundamentalist dreamland?
LW – you have indeed uncovered a most unchristian Gibraltar! I find it ironic that those who presume to warn us of the “dangers” of Islam then go on to exhibit the same kind of vitriolic, hateful tendancies than those they purport to stand against. Is it a case of great minds thinking alike? Or fools seldom differing? Even as a lily-livered, half-educated liberal, I think I know which is which ;)
Sociologically speaking, a social group will always stick together no matter their numbers. this means that if there is an influx of that race to an area then they will only become more prevelant and 'powerful'
ReplyDeletemy point is this, it is all well and good to want to give the older generation of morrocan their rights but by doing so we validate their children also. now i believe i am not alone in saying this but the second generation morrocan or "gibraltarian morrocan" is a dangerous social group. the youths terrorise the upper town and as a resident i see this everyday, they vandalise buildings and vehicles and assault passer bys (either verbally or physically).
do we REALLY want this to increase by giving them rights!?
there numbers will grow and thus so will their activity.
i challenge all of you who are so eager to appear humanitarian in nature, to live in the areas where these youths are more prevelant!
i gaurentee your minds will be changed when you see what i see everyday.
if there was a great influx which would surly come from the obtaining of rights; i would fear for my loved ones and gibraltar would lose its famed safety factor.
after all recently gibraltar was named the second safest place in Europe...how long do you think this would last!?
Brown Cow Said
ReplyDeleteI agree with Paco and many of his contributions to this debate.
A balanced approach to this issue would treat our fellow Gibraltarians who are originally from Morocco with respect and dignity and accept them and their families fully and properly into our community. It would deal equitably with those Moroccan citizens who do not reside in Gibraltar legally. Either by requiring them to leave or by permitting them to stay. It is no secret that the authorities are well aware of many Moroccan citizens here illegally but do not either regularise their position but neither do they force them to leave.
They live in limbo with the threat of deportation hanging over them. There are many young Moroccan children in Gibraltar who are not being schooled because of this complete and utter failure by Government and Immigration Authorities to act. This is no good for Gibraltar as a whole, or the Moroccan community. It results in the growth of a fugitive community. It generates ill will and division.
Many of the contributors to these comments describe the Moroccan community in bigotted terms - as parasites who should be shipped out. I for one do not agree with that view. I see a community that enlivens and enriches Gibraltar. A community that (as Paco points out) actually live their lives in Gibraltar more than many other members of our community (Gibraltarians, European ex-pats, Spanish workers).
We should be frank with ourselves about how the Gibraltarian community is developing and also about out history. Our diversity is born of centuries of accepting and integrating immigrants. We should not stop now. We should embrace it and turn it to our advantage. We should partner with our young Moroccan and tri-lingual Arabic-English and Spanish speaking new citizens to exploit new markets which sit right on our doorstep.
Before we turn the microscope on the Moroccan community we should look at ourselves. Many Gibraltarians choose to live in Spain - it is no longer the preserve of the Soto classes. For many living in Gibraltar is no longer an option. Local and international developers, and local individuals have participated in rampant property speculation. Many of the resulting developments lie empty even now. But it is still far too early to calculate whether or not the benefit to Gibraltar will outweigh the cost that we have paid in terms of Gibraltar being a place that is nice to live in. Gibraltar is a small conservative town and many of our brightest stars leave for fear of mental suffocation. Now we are building so high and so close to the waterline that many are choosing to leave to avoid physical suffocation too (not to mention burning a hole in their wallet).
It is not just wealthy ex-pats, cross border workers, soto types that use Gibraltar as simply a place to go to work.
If we want to talk about the changing face of Gibraltar we need to talk about these issues as well.
The Chief Minister is on record - warning us of the financial burden that treating our Moroccan citizens as equals would bring. Frankly I would prefer to build a Gibraltar with a robust social fabric, built on integrity, fairness, and equality of opportunity rather than a £50,000,000 airport.
To Carlito:
ReplyDeleteYou argue against yourself. No one marginalises themselves. Those who should include and don't do so. it is not the race that marginalises. Iit is how that race is treated by the local population that causes marginalisation. Do not blame others for our own failings.
To anonymous at 14.01:
The second generation Moroccans that you refer to are all entitled to British Citizenship by naturalisation so if there is a problem it needs to be dealt with anyhow. I suggest that the best way of dealing with it is integration and not alienation.
thanks again for your reply LW, but i disagree with your comment that no one marginalises themselves.
ReplyDeletehumans, by definition, will almost always try and find their comfort zone amongst their equals. invariably this leads to the creation of groups/classes/ ghettos.
as anonymous says above, a sociological group
will always stick together no matter numbers. i ask him to please provide any evidence/findings for this conclusion as it is exactly my point.
take for example the huge irish migration to early america. they established their own areas voluntarily as they found it easier to settle in places where they could speak the language and find familiar food.
this too may occur in gibraltar, or anywhere else in the world for that matter.
Carlito:
ReplyDeleteI think there is a great difference between people sticking to their peer, race or nationality and marginalising. A minority is marginalised by the majority and the minority mat well then retreat into itself. It is the responsibility of the majority to ensure that a minority does not react in this way.
Certainly that was one lesson learnt in England after the race riots of the early 1980's. Does Gibraltar have to wait for riots and greater violence before it decides to be inclusive?
DA: I do not think that the conditions exist for "riots and greater violence" in Gibraltar. If they were to happen we would expect the law to be obeyed and order maintained with vigour (including of course implementation of deportation rules). I am not sure that the lessons of the 1980s riots were ever understood, let alone learnt by the British authorities. The British State failed to provide leadership to the children of West Indian immigrants and instead tried to ingratiate itself to the rioters' sub-culture. The main losers of the policy exemplified by the ridiculous sight of English coppors trying to sashay to Carribean tunes were young black men of W. Indian descent who deprived of clear social structures are still at the bottom of the pile having been overtaken by all subseuqent waves of immigrants. The lesson for the feisty Moroccan boys who keep being mentioned here is that to succeed you have to behave (you do not need to change) but you do need to respect the host Gibraltarian community.
ReplyDeleteI agree with integration, after all the only way to truly understand someone is to know them be it as a race or otherwise.
ReplyDeletebut as i mentioned before with reference to the sociological implications, people bunch together because of a common factor. now the fact that you claim integration over alienation from the point of view that it is we the gibraltarian people who segregte makes me recoil a little in disgust.
from what i see it is not we who segregate, if i am not mistaken we through schooling and sports seek to bring all people (no matter race or religion) the same advantages. it is the fact that the morrocan community; namely the second generation, inflict upon themselves a self segregation as a result of the fact that they are as much alien to morroco as they are in gibraltar. the difference being that we attempt to give them a chance.
my point is simple, the second they show respect to themselves is the second they are worthy of our own and thus granting them the rights they want.
to Carlito: you wanted an example, sociologically of this self segregation that they embody. look no further than america. studies conducted by the university of Washington have shown that wealthy african-americans and african immigrants live side by side even though the monetary diffrence can be staggering. this has been attributed to the fact that a race will always feel comfortable with their own. it gives them strength on a psychological level, a comfort of sorts which in turn perpetuates the self segregation.
to put it simply how can we integrate them if they are unwilling. giving them the rights they seek will only lead to further long term segregation when their numbers increase and the inevitable extinction of the modern 'gibaltarian'.
"the inevitable extinction of the modern 'gibraltarian' is in the warm hands and handshakes of:
ReplyDeletea) Los Llanitos pancistas,
b) The Spanish political establishment,
Y penetrantemente:
c) En la mano dura de la politica de la derecha Española, y
d) En las manos manchadas de los facistas Españoles.
Y añadiendo:
e) el gran FCO
Se llega a la doble (f) "FUDGED & FUCKED"
GABRIEL GIBRALTAR LORCA