Saturday 18 December 2010

So the GSD Consider that a Sovereignty Change is a Possibility?

Are you confused by the arguments? Andorra is not shared sovereignty? Andorra is not joint sovereignty? Andorra is shared sovereignty? Andorra is joint sovereignty? Andorra is independent?

These are all questions that have been answered differently by different people. Some of these attempt to support and justify the Chief Minister's surprise assertion in Seville in which he signified possibly favouring an Andorran style constitutional status for Gibraltar. Others oppose and criticise him. What is salutary and interesting is that different concepts of "sovereignty", beyond the emotional aspect only, are at last being debated.

The reality is that there is no definitive answer to these questions. The answer is in the eyes of the beholder. There may not be a definitive answer but there are some certainties. I will attempt to identify some.

There are two princes in Andorra in whom ultimate sovereignty is vested. Fabian Picardo in his Chronic piece identifies those powers contained in the Andorran Constitution that are vested in these two princes. I do not intend to repeat them here. They simply do have powers. Like it or not this renders Andorra a joint sovereignty. Jamie Trinidad in his own piece in the Chronic tries to lessen the emotion in the argument by avoiding the use of the words "joint sovereignty" and alluding to "shared sovereignty".

What Jamie does,he is right on this point, is to emphasize that Andorra is considered by the international community to be an independent state with a representative in the UN. He argues that this, conjoined with the vesting under the Constitution of power in the people of Andorra, is such a diminution of the control shared or possessed jointly by the co-princes that it is not a hugely forceful or relevant consideration. This analysis is legally correct but, unfortunately, it suffers one insurmountable problem: political, geographical and power play realism.

What do I mean? First the simple consideration that Spain's claim is not satisfied by an arrangement similar to that of Andorra. Spain's claim is for territorial reintegration. This is not satisfied by esoteric and medieval concepts of co-principalities. Spain is geographically closer to Gibraltar. Spain is more powerful than Gibraltar on the international stage. These factors are only counterbalanced by real (not symbolic) British sovereignty.

In any event were Spain to agree it, what safeguard would Gibraltar have against its use of the residual power of the princes to advance their claim? Jamie suggests that one safeguard would be that the princes would be empowered in their personal and not national capacity. One would have to be naive to the extreme to believe that such a promise would reflect realities.

This opinion is clearly garnered from viewing the proposal from the perspective of Gibraltar. Viewed from the perspective of Spain and Britain, the panorama quickly changes. Spain's "prince" would be motivated by the national interest of Spain to reintegrate the territory of Gibraltar into the Spanish state. The British "prince" would be 1300 miles away without the same national interest drive that the Spanish "prince" would be motivated by. Certainly, acting in his personal capacity, the British prince would not have the power of the British government and its international standing supporting him for the benefit and protection of Gibraltar.

Additionally, the enormous differentials in size and international clout between Spain and Gibraltar cannot be ignored, nor can the reality of Spain's historical emotional reaction to Gibraltar. The size issue is presently neutralised by British sovereignty and the UK's responsibility to look after Gibraltar's international affairs. No real changes can occur by a negotiated arrangement without a substantive change in emotions and attitudes. Nationalistic considerations will come to the fore, both in Gibraltar but more importantly in Spain. These could undermine the viability of any arrangement in the international status of Gibraltar.

Where I simply get lost is trying to reconcile the Chief Minister's assertion, in the same speech in Seville, that independence is not an option for Gibraltar yet his suggestion of possibly introducing an Andorran style constitution is defended in the grounds that it is independence? The Chief Minister said in the Chronic "Andorra is a sovereign independent state ..." The only manner in which I can try to reconcile these arguments is on the basis that the application of a similar status to Gibraltar will fall short of independence in some manner that would placate Spain's claim to territorial reintegration. This matches the Chief Minister's reticence to ask for independence with resolving the Spanish concern that Gibraltar is not part of Spain's national territory by application of an appropriately modified Andorra model. If I am wrong then perhaps the Chief Minister can clarify that the GSD party's policy is to seek eventual full independence for Gibraltar.

It is also odd that not a single GSD Government Minister has been heard to comment publicly on whether or not the suggestion is acceptable to them. When will we hear from any of them? Do they each not have a view on such an important and fundamental issue such as this? Surely they each do, the electorate deserves to know what those views are. It is not enough for a party to advocate a policy of independence for Gibraltar yet hide behind the mantra "... only if the people of Gibraltar want this ..." Where is leadership in such a policy? My view, I simply do not consider that independence is an achievable or desirable goal ... so, as I have said in the past, leave well alone, we are doing just fine and only need minor governmental and electoral reforms to reduce the democratic deficit.

69 comments:

  1. Rob you say it is "odd that not a single GSD Government Minister has been heard to comment publicly on whether or not the suggestion is acceptable to them". There are no other GSD Ministers. Peter Caruana is the only real Minister. The other mini-ministers just do his bidding.

    None of them would risk jeopardising their well-paid jobs with public comments of a political public lest they drop a clanger by making some remark or other that may not be to the Chief Minister's liking or completely aligned with his own view.

    "When will we hear from any of them? Do they each not have a view on such an important and fundamental issue such as this? Surely they each do, the electorate deserves to know what those views are." We never will hear from them, unless they're ready to leave the party. Look what happened to Peter Cumming when he dared express a view on Andorra!

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  2. Great topic LLW!!

    You have hit the nail on the head with this one!

    Did you read my letter published in the Gibraltar Chronicle this past Friday in response to Mr.Trinidad’s statements?

    I even received HATE mail for it!! I MUST be on the right track if it caused such a reaction!!

    For those who did not have the pleasure (jk lol) to read the aforementioned letter please see below:

    Dear Sir,

    I hope you can indulge me and print this letter.

    I did not study at Cambridge nor do I have a PhD. What I do have though is access to the internet (as most people) and a great sense of nationalism.

    I read Mr. Trinidad’s article in the Chronicle (14th of December) and was far from impressed.

    I noticed how Mr. Trinidad conveniently quotes article 43 (2) of the Andorra constitution yet fails to acknowledge article 43 (1) which states the following: “In accordance with the institutional tradition of Andorra, the Co-princes are, jointly and indivisibly, the Cap de l'Estat, and they assume its highest representation.” Please note the words, jointly, indivisibly and highest representation. When put in layman’s terms this means that even though the Sovereignty of Andorra is vested with the people of Andorra the Co-princes will have the final say in all matters. Furthermore the aforementioned article cannot be altered as it is part of the very foundation on which the Andorra constitution was built upon.

    What really gets to me though is not the bickering between the different fractions regarding the interpretation\misinterpretation of the Andorra constitution, but the fact that some Gibraltarians are willing to concede an inch to Spain. To which I will add, there is a big difference between responding to such a proposal and making the proposal oneself!

    Mr. Trinidad’s attempt to sugar coat the truth saddens me. I can clearly see what he is advocating (at least it seems so from my perspective), which happens to be; “being a little bit Spanish is okay as long as we benefit from it” and I don’t like it. I guess patriotism is a thing of the past.

    On a final note I will like to urge ‘La Gente de mi pueblo’ not to show indifference or apathy in such matters as doing so could prove very costly!


    Kind regards,


    Kaelan Victor Joyce

    -----------------

    Please note that when word WILL is used instead of the word WOULD in the final sentence it is done purposely. It is not a grammatical error as someone had previously pointed out to me. I was well aware that the words “I would” are normally the appropriate ones to use in such sentences, but I was (still am) certain that what I had predicted was going to take place. Therefore I correctly opted for the uncommon “I will" instead.

    Regards,



    K

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  3. Read your article and concur with you in all that you said.
    I am convinced that Andorra is Joint Sovereignty and it would be interesting to know whether the Ministers are in favour of this? ultimately they are accountable to the electorate and as such they should be giving their opinion on the subject.
    If they keep their silence then we can all safely assume that they also favour an Andorra style solution.

    Lets not forget that Peter Cummings was sacked from the GSD for advocating the same and what up to now all Ministers and the Chief Minister are advocating.

    What is important is that they come clean so that electorate make their own decision.

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  4. IT'S A FOREGONE CONCLUSION, BUT THE REST OF THE MINISTERS REMAIN QUIETLY SILENT. EVEN XIBERRAS MADE A U-TURN ON THIS. TO THE DWINDLING GSD CROWD:

    "However bleak, I love and am powerfully moved by a stern response to a comforting untruth. It is evidence of the persistence of reason: the greatest comfort of all. And the convenient untruth, hardly believed by its author or its audience, is not a harmless thing. Denial may stifle grief where grief is natural. False affirmation may encourage hope where hope is misplaced. Both propagate unreason. Unreason leads us into folly and danger".

    HOW MANY MORE?

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  5. I am not confused by the Andorra debate because I know that the "debate" is being spun for party political purposes and has no real meaning. Caruana mentioned Andorra in his speech in a frantic try to liven up what, from the body language and bleary eyes of the people around him must have been a shockingly boring affair. I understand that after Caruana's speech his hosts served proplus pills washed down with Red Bull and offererd counselling. Anyway Canuara put his foot in it and now the opposition which has been hopeless in its job wants to use Andorra as a safe and simple political issue which can allow its learned members to concentrate on their urgent chambers work whilst appearing to be politicians. Anyway the crap that passes for politics these days is of such poor quality that I think that I might take the advice which you gave in another blog and vote blank unless any independants put themselves up for election. Be careful Robert that you yourself do not become an Andorra bore.

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  6. It is clear to me that an Andorra-type solution is definitely some sort of "shared" sovereignty! Government Ministers should express their views on this important matter, or we will be left with no other alternative but to have to assume that this is a whole-party affair. Come on, be brave! You owe it to the people of gibraltar who vested their confidence in you.

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  7. GSD = GIRALTAR SONGS & DANCES

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  8. ANON 19 December 2010 09:16

    What about the 8 other full-time ministers of the GSD government?

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  9. Ghost says:
    Part 1

    Jesus, Mary & Joseph! Robert, otra vez con el tema de Andorra, no wonder your numbers are low again man.

    You make valid points as always, some even make sense and are applicable to our current status quo vis a vis our relationship with an immature and undemocratic Spain. And this is exactly the point Robert, we can all identify with the ridiculous but real political stance that she takes over Gibraltar. If there is any consensus across the board regardless of our own political affiliations, it is our overriding concern of what Spain may be capable of.

    In the Chief Ministers 130 minute address in Seville of which approx 45 minutes was a key note speech, he delivers a two part delivery in which:

    a) he takes the opportunity of putting right any misconceptions that the audience (including many journalists whom have in the past made vicious attacks on Gibraltar) may have and takes the opportunity of underpinning our socioeconomic success with real examples relating to our democratic political system, our transparent financial system, our compliance with OECD and European directives, relating to free movement for EU nationals and other such matter; but over and above all of this that we enjoy an economy supported by four fundamental sectors, finance, gaming, shipping and tourism industries.

    b) he proceeds to blow Spain's democratic credential to pieces with regards to her policy on Gibraltar. I would add that he spends the greater part of his speech delivering a formidable and accurate summary of Spain's inability to perform any democratic act toward Gibraltar other than the most recent being the Cordoba agreements in which he proceeds to declare that Spain found herself with no other choice but to enter into, given that the U.K post 2006 gives her full commitment that she will no longer enter into bilateral talks with Spain.

    What I find interesting is that in no part of his speech does he mention the possibility or any other indication of any aspiration he might have on behalf of Gibraltar, that relates to Joint Sovereignty; none whatsoever! One might be forgiven for questioning this, given that the assertion from LW and others is that the new GSD policy is to sell Gib down the joint sovereignty road, after having secured our future and right of decision now engrained in our constitution.

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  10. Part 2

    Your legal training Robert will surely have taken you beyond the black and white. Analyze the facts, consider our present realities and what PRC has achieved in the name of protecting Gibraltar; then do me the favor and review the speech and Q&A. His reference to Andorra, if you are to accept it in its context, is quite simply a jibe at Spain, maybe even a kite, but it highlights the fact that his intention is to question why Spain has shown democratic credentials and upheld the freedom and right to self determination of the Andorran people, but cannot do so with Gibraltar. I will not go into the many mini caveats he covers his statement with, and ask why he might have made these.

    So no Robert, there is no new policy. There is aspiration and a belief that Gibraltar is not in its end game.

    With regards to the Andorra model and the many questions that surround this, I quote you; "The reality is that there is no definitive answer to these questions. The answer is in the eyes of the beholder." There is a debate to be had here Robert, but as with almost everything, it has been politically hijacked by those who want to make Andorra and joint sovereignty the issue for the next election under the premiss of a statement made and used in completely the wrong context.

    I ask you this; do you think that when Joe Bossano sent a delegation to Andorra in 1993 (post) his intention was to seek joint sovereignty? or was it to explore and consider the design of a new constitution allowed in part by Spain and in doing so, showing freely that she accepts Andorra has a right to decide her future ? and if the latter was the case, (as I believe it to be) the argument must be the same as that being thrown out there by PRC and in an attempt to get Spain to wake up to its responsibilities and duties as a modern democracy........he held Spain to account in Spain is all.

    Numbers should go up now.

    G

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  11. Ghost

    Nowhere have I said whether I agree or disagree with Andorra as a possibility for Gibraltar. It is not a decision that needs to be taken because it is simply not either necessary or on the cards. I believe things are fine so why explore impossibilities but if our politicians fly kites let them stand or fall by them. Ministers also have to decide their position.

    No doubt everything you say may be correct but you know what ... boring. news is made by new pronouncements hence ANDORRA! I am reacting to new arguments that have appeared in the press last week. Nothing else is happening ... i wonder why?

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  12. Actually quite a lot has been happening on the political front but you need to read the New People and Panorama to find out what' going on as the Chronic and 7 Days mostly regurgitate press releases from both sides with little or no independent comment.

    For instance, Panorama's Political Notebook by Onlooker on 13 Dec 2010 reveals that Isobel Ellul-Hammond is a hot tip to take over from Yvette del Agua "who wants to call it a day" and asks why Gilbert Licudi has adopted such a low profile despite holding a portfolio, traffic and transport, which lends itself to visibility and regular comment.

    Thanks to the New People (16.12.10) we learn that the Govt has spent £1.75 million on seven state-of-the-art portaloos and has ordered two electronic panels that will display departures and arrivals at the new air terminal. The latter will cost us...wait for it...£2.4 million.

    Yes, there's an awful lot of politiqueo going on and it's not all 'Andorra'. You just need to know where to look!

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  13. Does the Chief Ministers visit to the UK Minister for Gambling have anything to do with the final paragraph of this article?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/19/gambling-gibraltar-tax-haven

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  14. I would imagine so. They may have been alerted by Joe Bossano's comments in his Casino Calpe speech, I think it was, about the gambling companies alleged attempts to try and pay less than ten percent next year. In a way it's surprising that HMG has allowed Gib to play this game for so long but then again Alderley, Isle of Man etc are all at it too so I guess it must be difficult for them to try to curb all this 'British offshore' gambling activity, even though we will supposedly no longer be 'offshore' next year.

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  15. SILENCE OF THE LAMBS?

    LLW call "Ghost Busters" and "Myth Busters"!

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  16. Well I have enjoyed both the analysis and the comments thereon.

    But the reality is that Gibraltar is in "Catch 22". There can be no change in Gibraltar's status unless Spain is willing to alter its claim to full sovereignty. But as Spain is unwilling to contemplate any change to its claim to full sovereignty there can be no change in Gibraltar's status.

    The ball really is in the Spanish court. But I believe that the CM was putting another ball into play to see if the Spanish would pick it up and run with it. So far they haven't and I don't think they will. There are no votes in it for them after all - and an election year coming up.

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  17. Anonymous at 21:45

    Spot on, the Despatch to the 2006 Constitution has changed the dynamics altogether. The key to the political advancement of Gibraltar has been handed to a negotiation between Gibraltar and Spain with the UK just watching on quietly and patiently.

    Where then does that element of this much bandied about word "sovereignty" lie? One guess people ... some of us did try and convince people to vote "NO" in the referendum for the 2006 Constitution.

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  18. Another big lie - the 2006 referendum?

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  19. Michael Ancram

    "But sovereignty is not something you can write down on pieces of paper. It has to be constantly reasserted and you must be vigilant all the time to make sure you are not being undermined. There are issues at the moment, within the EU, where the sovereignty of Gibraltar could be undermined and its vital therefore to have people elected within the European Parliament who are going to monitor what is happening to ensure that undermining does not take place by default"

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  20. Ghost eres el MAS CRACK!!

    The way you mould any and EVERY assessment concerning the Andorra ‘fiasco’ to support your opinions is indeed worthy of admiration!! If I may ask, do you do this purposely? Or does it just “happen”? lololol

    After reading your statements it seems to me that you are under the impression that the CM knew exactly what he was doing in Seville. The Andorra statements were all part of his master plan right? How sad my dear friend to see that your political values have been indoctrinated beyond repair.

    Your statements seem downright preposterous, even loyal GSD members have come out stating that the CM (pardon my French) screwed up in Seville. The man said what he said, it was recorded! There is no retracting, it is too late. The fact that the CM was speaking fantastically until then is rendered completely void by the Andorra statements. He had no right to state what he did and we all know it.

    Furthermore I find the following comments slightly misleading:
    “What I find interesting is that in no part of his speech does he mention the possibility or any other indication of any aspiration he might have on behalf of Gibraltar that relates to Joint Sovereignty; none whatsoever “
    I do agree with your assessment that proposing an Andorra type solution for Gibraltar does not necessarily mean proposing a Joint Sovereignty deal. What it DOES mean though is that the CM is/was prepared to give up a certain percentage of Gibraltar’s sovereignty to Spain. Please note that the ONLY way an Andorra type model can be implemented for Gibraltar is by doing the aforementioned. There is no other way.
    To this I will add and re-quote article 43 (1) of the Andorra constitution which states the following: “In accordance with the institutional tradition of Andorra, the Co-princes are, jointly and indivisibly, the Cap de l'Estat, and they assume its highest representation.” Please note the words, jointly, indivisibly and highest representation. When put in layman’s terms this means that even though the Sovereignty of Andorra is vested with the people of Andorra the Co-princes will have the final say in all matters. Therefore if the implementation of an Andorra model were to take place, even though the Sovereignty of Gibraltar would be vested with the people of Gibraltar the Prince of Spain could assert his prerogative in relation to matters regarding Gibraltar whenever he desired to. Why if I may ask, do we need to concede an inch to Spain?? Why do we even have to have a Spanish Prince? Why did the CM mention such an atrocity?

    The reality is that there IS a DEFINITIVE answer. The Andorra model DOES mean a Sovereignty deal with Spain. Your statement seems to imply that the CM did not advocate at any point any type of Sovereignty deal with Spain and this is untrue. By proposing the Andorra Model he proposed a Sovereignty deal, be it one that made us 50% Spanish or 2% Spanish. The offer was still on the table....

    Regards,


    K

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  21. Kafab strikes again. Este equipo es fuera de serie. Guys if you say it enough times, we might actually believe that Caruana is going to sell Gib. Then again, it could come back and bite you in the arse! Risky play from the team who brought us to the brink of direct rule, on the man who has secured our future long term.

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  22. Anon 15:34
    You definately live in cuckooland, y te crees todo lo que el GSD te dice como lo del direct rule!! Hurd said at the time that he never said anything of direct rule. As to securing our long term future eso no me lo creo ni during the Christmas borrachera.
    So Happy Christmas and a prosperous new year. A New year full of goodies that Caruana will be dishing out to try to convince the electorate he is the man to lead us into a "deal done" by him with a two sovereigns being head of state of Gibraltar. OVER MY DEAD BODY COS WE WILL RESIST.

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  23. There is only one sound argument that strikes the vital chords of the very hearts of virtually every Gibraltarian. And that is British sovereignty. We have all been British and the vast majority of us extremely proud of it, for all our lives; we will have it no other way! If Gibraltar were an island, we would have been independent in 1969. But, we are not; independence will only lead to annexation.
    Britain was the pebble in Spain’s shoe in the eighteenth century, but after the Treaty of Versailles in 1783 and particularly since Wellington(1) helped the Spaniards defeat and expel the French from Spain, the European states began to take definite shapes and borders became universally more acceptable. This, too, applied to Gibraltar. (...apart from some vain imaginings from Godoy, no further efforts were made by Spain to recover the fortress either by arms or by diplomacy for many a long year.)(2) Consequently, Gibraltarians had no problems with Spain until the Castiella’s proposals. I am old enough to know, I was around when Spain was last a kingdom.
    Our own politicians’ sense of grandeur, greed and political ambition, have complicated matters for us all. The roles have been reversed. The United Kingdom and the Kingdom of Spain are now allies and great friends. And we are the rocky bits in the Spanish politicians’ shoes. A drastic change in attitude and behaviour is of the essence. Our demands on the British Government in respect of our desire to rule our destinies should never have been other than to become a part of the British family, like Jersey or Guernsey. We should never have permitted our referral to the U.N., and we should unite in fighting for our withdrawal from the decolonization process. It is, also, vital that we defend tooth and nail our Special Separate Jurisdictional Status in the European Union.
    Any candidate for election to Parliament, who could honestly convey to our people, of any political conviction, the truth of the above could be half way to Parliament and could turn the tide that is tending, slowly but surely, to erode our sense of belonging to the British family of nations.
    (1). THE WELLINGTON WAY: "YOU MAY RELY ON THIS, THAT IF YOU TAKE A FIRM AND DECIDED LINE, AND SHOW YOUR DETERMINATION TO GO THROUGH WITH IT , YOU WILL BRING THE SPANISH GOVERNMENT TO THEIR SENSES, AND YOU WILL PUT AN END TO THEIR PETTY CABALS”.
    (2) SIR CHARLES PETRIE, CORRESPONDING MEMBER OF THE ROYAL SPANISH ACADEMY OF HISTORY.

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  24. Llanita from Gibraltar says...


    The GSD, or rather, the elite section of the party, has worked tirelessly, since their inception, to convince the electorate, Peter Caruana’s palomo past was just that, the past, and for many years they have succeeded. We’ve relaxed, put away the ‘National’ fever that helped define our people and re-define it again for a new generation with the start of National Day. We’ve been happy to drop our guard, after all Spain is listening, they even allow us to sit at the same table and include us in the conversation.

    A new dawn? A new approach? A new modus operandi? Perhaps... but, could this be the right time to introduce the radical thought?

    The opposition have reacted slowly and cautiously but when they have, they’ve been accused of ‘spin’ & of milking it to score political points. The other GSD ministers are silent and the GSD propaganda machinery is hard at work, genuinely convinced that this is just anti-Caruana speak to cloud the issue.

    But is it? Did Mr Caruana not utter the words?

    Then again, are we really that bothered? And if so, why are we not protesting louder? And why are we knocking those that are, like yourself Robert?

    Every new and radical idea ever introduced begun with a whisper, a notion, a suggestion.

    Should we be wary then of this latest development? Perhaps a little hole has been opened in the big ‘No to Spain’ dam we have built over the years, and the water is slowly seeping through, but gradually the hole will get bigger and bigger until eventually, it brings the dam down completely and the water engulfs us, and by then it will be far too late.

    Time will be the judge on these crazy ideas we are all having on both sides of the argument.

    I hope, though, future generations don’t just label us as the spendthrift generation, after leaving the huge debts we seem to be dumping on them to pay off in the future, but also as the naive and pansista generation, who were stupid enough to believe we had a voice in this never-ending chess game Spain & Britain have been entertaining themselves with for so many years!

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  25. Despite the debt we have you will see the irresponsible GSD government (or even Caruana since he decides everything)giving out many goodies to get re-elected and what is even worse is that he is going to paint a picture of having lots of surplus in our economy and that everthing is OK. Watch this space!!

    By the way did you know that the GSD Government is currently spending around £3m a week in order to complete all the projects before the next general election. That the GSD Government will be investing in the Midtown project yet they do not help other developers! Why?? A proper investigation is needed into this subject.
    And on top of all this we will be left with a neighbour Spain thinking that we are slowly giving up and that we are now will to negotiated a Joint Sovereignty "Done Deal" by our very own Chief Minister.

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  26. I know that the comment I am putting below has nothing to do with the GSD wanting to have Joint sovereignty which is worrying in itself, but it has to be said.
    The union unite is currently in a campaign to undermine the workers from the Building and Works. They are pressurising us to sign the agreement or "Done Deal" which the union leadership concocted with Caruana at the rock Hotel. Since I believe in Freedom of Speech but unfortunely this is lacking as you have stated on numerous ocassions in this blog i have to keep my name anonymous.

    The facts are that ina meeting with the union leadership last week most of the members where unhappy wioth the agreement and some workers got agitated and wanted the leadership to resign. The anonymous letter has NOT been removed as you have been told by the union leadership. What has happened is that the person who wrote it and circulated it has been threatened. The ballot will now take place apparently in the New Year. GBC was right in putting it out.
    What is incredible is that this is done by the union leadership. Censorship and intimidation. Please publish this in your blog since I know that it is only in this blog where people are willing to speak out all be it having to keep anonymity. Sad that this is happening with the GSD Government who promised transparency and accountability and freedom of speech!!
    Thanks for your help we are a group from the Building and Works scared of repercussion.

    By the way non of us want Joint Sovereignty!!

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  27. Dear Robert

    I would like to wish you, the contributors to this blog and all those who read and follow 'Llanito World' a very merry Christmas and festive season and health and happiness for 2011.

    Isobel Ellul-Hammond :)

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  28. Thank you for the xmas wishes Isobel :)

    Llanita 10:50 I concur!!

    I am glad you have taken the time to post your thoughts on LLW. :)

    The only thing I don't agree with is this: "were stupid enough to believe we had a voice".

    We DO have a voice!!! We CAN make a difference!!! We NEED to believe in ourselves because if we don't no one else will!!
    Furthermore I will never forgive the GSD elite for destroying National Day and attempting to dissolve the Identity of our people. Nor will I forgive those who have so adamantly defended their actions.

    At first I was angry, then I was confused and now I am just sad! I would never think I would live to see the day that such apathy was shown by my peers. It is a sad day indeed :(

    The new breed of Gibraltarian that the GSD Government is producing is arrogant, deluded and selfish. They can no longer relate to the great sense of nationalism that was once so common in Gibraltar. To preoccupied with their own visions of grandeur and personal gain to risk being seen as a “threat” by the Government.

    Please note I am openly stating all of the above, refusing to hide behind the cape of anonymity as I have nothing to hide and even more importantly, nothing to gain.

    I see foreigners getting preferential treatment in MY land. Hundreds of qualified locals with degrees jobless, whilst a never ending influx of ‘imports ‘continue to find employment in OUR land.

    I take note of the Consultation paper recently drafted by OUR Government that incidentally grants our SPANISH neighbours the SAME exact right to apply for Angling Licences as our OWN PEOPLE. This means NO SET QUOTA on the amount of licences applied for by the Spaniards and the FACT that they can now LEGALLY FISH in OUR Gibraltar.

    I walk down the streets that my forefathers used to walk through and I observe Gibraltar’s youth slowly spirally out of control. Consumed by alcohol and drugs they seem to show little to no respect for their elders. Something that at my young age I had never encountered before.

    I find myself in the middle of a concrete jungle surrounded by properties, which predominately belong to investors who reside outside Gibraltar.

    I hear the “llanitos” talking and their voices lack the patriotism of the past.

    I feel sick and nauseous, que la pasao ami Gibraltar??????

    There are those who brand my statements; superfluous and melodramatic. To which I respond, do so at your own peril.

    If we continue to ALLOW the aforementioned we shall surely end up being foreigners in our own land (like the English are in the UK) and the “llanito” will cease to be.

    To which I will add “The greatest danger to our future is apathy” (Jane Goodall). Ma verda que eso ay poka cosa!!

    Merry xmas to all!

    Regards,



    K

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  29. Estai tomate. I sincerely hope that LW truly has the audience that it says it has, because the attitude and content of some of it's bloggers is quite literally frightning. Gibraltarians need to read this diatribe.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Anonymous 17:48

    Tomate? People have opinions just like you please be tolerant.

    ReplyDelete
  31. This is all getting pretty creepy! what with people going on and on about the same thing and someone calling everyone tomate. Tomar tila senhores.

    ReplyDelete
  32. Anonymous 17:48

    I find it amusing that you “bravely” and anonymously label the LLW bloggers "tomate" and then dismiss their views as “diatribe”, whilst not even attempting to produce some type of counter argument. On what basis have you come to such conclusions?? Please feel free to enlighten me.

    On a last note WHEN/IF you grow a "pair" or actually have the decency to respond appropriately please let me know will you?

    Regards,


    K

    ReplyDelete
  33. Isobel

    Very kind of you, thank you, your season's greetings are reciprocated.

    I am also glad of your tolerance, obviously you do not think "ke stamos to tomate (sic)"

    LOL

    ReplyDelete
  34. Anon 17:48 has just proved Kaelan's point. What is mean by diatribe?
    Who decides what is frightening?
    "Attitude" It's your attitude which is frihgtening. A person who is not willing to take criticism of a GSD government or any government for that matter shows that he/she is not able to be called democratic. Let's not forget that freedom of speech is what our forefathers fought for in two world wars and we should value all opinions and comments especially those who have the courage of their convictions and have also the courage to put their name down.

    I know that at least bloggers generally are tolerant towards all types of opinions, but it just goes to show the way some people and think of themselves superior.

    Guess that the attitude of our current chief minister is rubbing on to some people.

    Spelling mistakes, paragraphing, bad english, grammatical errors, or not mincing their words and ant other way that people express themselves is what makes this blog an exciting place to discuss issues which you are trying to suppress.

    let's not forget every man and woman have a vote whether tall,small,fat,thin, GSD, GSLP, PDP, Liberal clever or not so clever.

    ReplyDelete
  35. Ghost.........19th December 18:23

    Jesus, Mary & Joseph! So now Caruana's Freudian slip on Andorra was just a jibe.

    "Eso no te lo crees ni tu"

    My poor grandmother has been unable to sleep since our dear Chief Minister decided to take a jibe at the spaniards.

    Peter Hain and Jack Straw we wanted to hang, draw and quarter, but our dear Chief Minister we excuse, because, he was just being mischievous.

    Hain and Straw were just "unos mandaos" and he the Chief Ministerr is supposed to be one of us.

    If your analysis of our economy is the same as your analysis of the Andorran fiasco, we are in serious trouble.

    You say "we enjoy an economy supported by four foundamental sectors finance, gaming, shipping and tourism."
    Shipping? Do we have a fleet of ships like those greek tycoons,that I know nothing about?
    Or are you getting grandiose ideas like our Dear Leader?
    How much of these activities do you think pay for government spendings? And how much do you think comes from the exports of tabacco? Tabacco you conveniently left out. I will enlighten you, nearly a million a week.

    Put it in your pipe and smoke it, Fantasma.

    Oscar la Mosca.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Nicely put Anonymous 20:05

    Freedom of expression should be available to all!! Regardless of race, gender, or IQ levels!!

    Personally I value the comments made by everyone on this blog. Be it a high flyer like Robert or a common person such as myself.

    VIVA LLW!! The blog which enables people from different levels of society to mix, mingle and debate accordingly!

    Regards,

    K

    ReplyDelete
  37. I love the "I walk down the streets that my forefathers used to walk through and I observe Gibs youth slowly spirally out of control. Consumed by alcohol and drugs they seem to show little or no respect for their elders."

    And wait for it, this is the best bit.

    "something that at my young age I had never encountered before"

    absolutely brilliant! Este que esta en serio?

    Viva la revolucion.

    ReplyDelete
  38. In response to some of Kaelan’s comments earlier, my responses are just after his quotes:

    “I will never forgive the GSD elite for destroying National Day and attempting to dissolve the Identity of our people.”
    National Day is about celebrating our Gibraltarian way of life and identity as a people, which remains as strong as ever and has not been destroyed by anyone. Our identity is engrained in who we are: a diverse, vibrant, community-orientated people who also include the Moroccan, Jewish and Indian Communities; this cannot be dissolved by a group of people!
    “Nor will I forgive those who have so adamantly defended their actions.”
    What actions are you talking about that are so unforgivable?
    “At first I was angry, then I was confused and now I am just sad! I would never think I would live to see the day that such apathy was shown by my peers.”
    It’s not apathy: it’s security and progress that we have in our modern, democratic Gibraltar that has embraced being part of a wider Europe and broadened its horizons by being more ‘global’ if you like.
    “The new breed of Gibraltarian that the GSD Government is producing is arrogant, deluded and selfish.”
    That’s not how I’ve raised my kids to be!
    “They can no longer relate to the great sense of nationalism that was once so common in Gibraltar.”
    Thank goodness, nationalism can verge on totalitarianism, people in Gibraltar are actually happy with the progress seen over the last 20 years, we are safer and more autonomous than ever before.
    “Too preoccupied with their own visions of grandeur and personal gain to risk being seen as a “threat” by the Government.”
    The age of consumerism, technology and information has also hit Gibraltar you know! People are better off and more educated, standards of living have gone up all round and not everyone is preoccupied with conspiracy theories and fear of repercussions.
    “I see foreigners getting preferential treatment in MY land. Hundreds of qualified locals with degrees jobless, whilst a never ending influx of ‘imports ‘continue to find employment in OUR land”
    Now the last time I heard this kind of talk was from the BNP. We are part of the EU you know.
    “grants our SPANISH neighbours the SAME exact right to apply for Angling Licences as our OWN PEOPLE. This means NO SET QUOTA on the amount of licences applied for by the Spaniards and the FACT that they can now LEGALLY FISH in OUR Gibraltar”
    Gibraltarians can legally fish anywhere in the world, the important point is that fishing will be REGULATED and MONITORED as in the rest of the modern world.
    “I walk down the streets that my forefathers used to walk through and I observe Gibraltar’s youth slowly spirally out of control. Consumed by alcohol and drugs they seem to show little to no respect for their elders. Something that at my young age I had never encountered before.”
    Any young person, including my children, reading this would take great offence to this sweeping statement damning them all to a downward spiral of abuse and disrespect. I object, the majority of young people in Gibraltar are respectful, innovative, hardworking and have achieved so much more than our forefathers. Our forefathers are smiling down on the young people of Gibraltar of today.
    “There are those who brand my statements; superfluous and melodramatic. To which I respond, do so at your own peril.”
    What kind of threat is this? What do you have in mind for those people who do not agree with you...will you be putting your boxing gloves on?
    “If we continue to ALLOW the aforementioned we shall surely end up being foreigners in our own land (like the English are in the UK) and the “llanito” will cease to be”
    Far too BNP for my liking.
    “To which I will add “The greatest danger to our future is apathy”... Counteracting apathy does not mean threats, extreme nationalism, xenophobia or racism...it means respect, tolerance and working together for the better of all.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Am I now being censored for again pointing out another dishonest debate? You are NOT the spokesman for the GSD so why do you keep ascribing policies to it which they do not share? Is the purpose of this blog really to encourage debate as you say, or do you just want a RV appreciation society? For any debate to have meaning all views must be allowed. To simply refuse to put comments which disagree with you or point out the dishonesty or innaccuracy of statements would be shameful.

    The GSD has NEVER stated that it wants a change of sovereignty. Your determined attempts to tarnish the party will not prosper because people are not as stupid as you seem to think they are. After 16 yrs in govt I am sure there are a number of things on which the GSD can rightly be critisized, however this should only hapen on the basis of TRUTH....not on what you falsely claim are their policies.

    By all means have a go at any political party you wish.....but at least be accurate and truthfull when doing so.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Anonymous 20:55

    I am glad you enjoy my postings!

    Let me put things into perspective, I am only 28 and by youths I meant teenagers(13-19).

    Ps - A sarcastic person has a superiority complex that can be cured only by the honesty of humility.

    Kind regards,


    K

    ReplyDelete
  41. Anon 20;05 says to Kaelan thanks for the complement and can assure you that we will win La revolucion!!

    La revolucion yes anon 20;55
    la revolucion to show you up for what you are. intolerant people who think too much for themselves. As the saying goes "Probablemente no tiene abuela!!?"

    By the way just one observation in the passed year we have had attempted murder twice, suicide at the prison, violent beatings to shopkeepers.

    Young people arrested for drink and drugs related offences.

    So those who do live in Gibraltar are en serio and those who live in cuckooland just continue to live your dream.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Darren

    all comments that are not defamatory or pure sarcasm are published. Andorra involves a change of sovereignty, be it to independence with sovereignty vested in the people or to the joint princes. There is no dishonesty in saying that.

    People are fee to think as they wish but you should not be holier than though in your condemnation of the views of others. Politics is not a religion!

    And no it is not the RV appreciation society no one is obliged to read anything, comments adverse to me personally are constantly posted and allowed even if they are defamatory of me.

    ReplyDelete
  43. Heinz T. Ketchup writes: I agree with the poster who highlights the hellish crime wave that Gibraltar has experienced this year. An evil trend is surfacing but the passivity of people is almost as shocking. Have we become a complacent society who focus only on trivia? In my view the main underlying problem is drugs. But our education system does little to train young people to discriminate between what is right and good and beautiful and the violent fantasy that is pumped into children's minds by TV. Bishop Heskett has asked his flock to come up with comments as to the place of the Church in modern day Gibraltar, well I say that the Church has never been more removed from the day to day life of people and has all but abdicated its place as the beacon of standards and morality (Rabbi Hassett has more or less implied this, and he is right). We need to put a stop to the importation of UK type sub-cultures and stop tolerating the intolerable. In 2011 let us end the smarminess and complacency and hypocrisy and fake generosity that is turning Gibraltar into a dangerous, nasty, dark little place. To all readers a very Happy Christmas and a great 2011!!!

    ReplyDelete
  44. Kaelan what do you mean by killing national day? is your idea of national day a huge crowd of dimwits drugged out of their heads cheering every time Joe says self determination is paramount??

    please advise?

    Before you ask National day for me has always been about celebrating and to this day I continue to do it every 10th September.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Oh it’s ON now!! It’s on like DONKEY KONG!! lololol Need to do this in Three posts.

    In response to Anonymous 22:06 comments earlier, my responses are just after his quotes:

    “National Day is about celebrating our Gibraltarian way of life and identity as a people, which remains as strong as ever and has not been destroyed by anyone. Our identity is engrained in who we are: a diverse, vibrant, community-orientated people who also include the Moroccan, Jewish and Indian Communities; this cannot be dissolved by a group of people.”
    Wishful thinking ? If you sincerely believe that the identity of our people is as “strong as ever” then you are COMPLETELY out of touch with the Gibraltar of today! Let us recall that in the past speeches were made by the CM at Casemates Square during National Day. Thousands gathered and rejoiced! We celebrated our UNITY as a people and were PROUD of our British roots. Sadly these days are gone! Or are they not? ? The GSD Government is slowly eroding our Great sense of nationalism and by doing so replacing “El Amor Proprio” con el “Pansismo”!
    There is even evidence of this! As many Gibraltarians now prefer to do the unthinkable and spend ND in SPAIN rather than find themselves crammed in “La Piazza” listening to the MAYOR quote from pre-written transcripts in a manner that LACKS fire and PASSION. Our up and coming generations can no longer relate to “el pueblo” as they once used to. This is a FACT that is as obvious as the lack of hair on my head lololol.
    Furthermore let us note that the “group of people” whom you speak of are not JUST people but INFLUENTIAL people. In positions of POWER that can sway (as they see fit), public perception in most matters (e.g. CM Andorra Statements). With the right amount of time (how many years have they been in power now?) and by continuously applying their propaganda ploys ANYTHING is possible! Even the aforementioned! The Gibraltarian of TODAY is LOSING his/her SENSE OF BELONGING; there is just no way round this.

    “What actions are you talking about that are so unforgivable?”
    (1) The sabotaging of National Day. (2) The attempt to dissolve the identity of our people.
    Please see above for a more in depth explanation. lol


    “It’s not apathy: it’s security and progress that we have in our modern, democratic Gibraltar that has embraced being part of a wider Europe and broadened its horizons by being more ‘global’ if you like”
    I love how you go from apathy to security in the same sentence! Are you for real?? What have you been smoking? Sera de la “Buena” no? Are you insinuating that the in order for us to be ‘global’, modern and democratic we must in the process forget WHO WE ARE?? Enplan HIPPIE no? Blasphemy!!!

    “That’s not how I’ve raised my kids to be!”
    So you say, very conveniently as an anonymous blogger. Enough said.

    “Thank goodness, nationalism can verge on totalitarianism, people in Gibraltar are actually happy with the progress seen over the last 20 years, we are safer and more autonomous than ever before.”
    Safer and more autonomous says who?? We are as autonomous as we were 20 years ago when the GSLP was in power. Safer? Our CM just PROPOSED an Andorra type “arrangement” for Gibraltar I certainly DO NOT feel safe AT ALL!!
    People in Gibraltar are actually happy? I guess this is why the Gibraltar Angling Association was up in arms at the North mole picket a few weeks ago right? Amongst other things this also seems to explain why the GSD Government SCRAPED through the last elections by a measly 2 % margin. FACTS speak for themselves!! Anda Anda lololol


    ......

    ReplyDelete
  46. Part 2 - maybe just 2 postinsg will do? hmm

    “The age of consumerism, technology and information has also hit Gibraltar you know! People are better off and more educated, standards of living have gone up all round and not everyone is preoccupied with conspiracy theories and fear of repercussions.”
    True! People are indeed better off than what they once were, as is the case in most places around the world. This though does not retract from the fact that there COULD be repercussions if people continue to have feelings of indifference and apathy towards Sovereignty related issues. As for your conspiracy “theories” please see above (Andorra “arrangement”), I believe we are WELL and truly past the “conspiracy” point at this stage. Genuine THREAT is more like it!!

    “Now the last time I heard this kind of talk was from the BNP. We are part of the EU you know”
    I resent your implications. Two of my best friends happen to be originally from India and most of the kids I spend time with at the gym are either Moroccan or from Moroccan decendancy. Do not attempt to play the RADICAL or RACE CARD with me because you will fail miserably.

    “Gibraltarians can legally fish anywhere in the world, the important point is that fishing will be REGULATED and MONITORED as in the rest of the modern world”
    Eso no te lo cree ni tu!! Please try and obtain an Angling Licence from Spain okay? Ave que de dicen (I know I have tried)! Either you are very naive or very stupid either way you are wrong.

    “Any young person, including my children, reading this would take great offence to this sweeping statement damning them all to a downward spiral of abuse and disrespect. I object, the majority of young people in Gibraltar are respectful, innovative, hardworking and have achieved so much more than our forefathers. Our forefathers are smiling down on the young people of Gibraltar of today”
    Please accept my apologies if I have offended your children in any way, this was never my intention. Not one to mince my words, I call things as I see them. Furthermore I believe that most of the bloggers on LLW will agree with me when I state, that the youth of Gibraltar is out of control. Youth related Drug/alcohol abuse and crime are ALL on the rise! These are once again FACTS!! Vamo que no me lo toy sacando del sobaco!

    “What kind of threat is this? What do you have in mind for those people who do not agree with you...will you be putting your boxing gloves on?”
    These days I rarely “put on my gloves” but when I do so it is exclusively for large amounts of cash. hahahaa jkies!! I am far too well educated to resort to such things ;) Ps - It was a warning and NOT a threat!

    “Far too BNP for my liking.”
    Again with the BNP!! You confuse my strong sense of patriotism for radicalism!!

    “Counteracting apathy does not mean threats, extreme nationalism, xenophobia or racism...it means respect, tolerance and working together for the better of all.”
    Once again you misinterpret my comments. To this I shall add that I am not advocating a “no foreigner” policy in Gibraltar, this would be wrong. What I am advocating though is that Gibraltar is first and foremost for the GIBRALTARIANS. It is OUR LAND and OUR PEOPLE should be given preferential treatment NOT those who come from abroad. That is all.

    On a final note, I have come to the following conclusions after carefully analysing your assessments.

    (1)You have undoubtedly fallen for the GSD propaganda ploy that portrays a perfect Gibraltar.
    (2)You live in a BUBBLE. You must do! There is no other explanation for your manner of thinking! You see to be completely oblivious to what is happening in your VERY OWN backyard.
    (3)The words freedom of speech and democracy are only applicable for people with similar views as you. Others are exempt! We are all “tomates” who talk “diatribe” and should adhere without questioning to everything you state!! All HAIL YOU!! The wise and all knowing!!

    Thank you for finding the time to respond to my postings.

    Regards,


    K

    ReplyDelete
  47. El Maravilla

    Your stereotyping of Gibraltarians celebrating National Day as drugged out dimwits does you no credit and does Gibraltar an enormous disservice. To then suggest that this is a description of followers of Joe Bossanno is sheer devisive insult. You should be ashamed of yourself. I just hope this is not howe GSD supporters really think.

    On National Day the predominant feature has always been family oriented with many youth having fun. What, I believe, is being referred to is the political content of National Day being killed. That this is what the GSD government has achieved cannot be denied.

    One basis and argument used by the GSD to kill it was that the 2006 Constitution had achieved self determination for Gibraltar so it was no longer necessary to include a political aspect to National Day. Has this view now changed in view of the Chief Minister's pronouncement in Seville that Gibraltar has not yet achieved its final political status? Can we exopect a political rally that the Chief Minister will address telling his electorate what his vision of that final status is to be? He says that is what leadership is about. When will he be leading on this issue?

    ReplyDelete
  48. Robert,

    I am not stereotyping, I have been in the middle of that crowd, and seen how no one cound give a shit about the speeches or their content!

    all they (and i include myself) cared about was having a good time, drinking vast amounts of alcohol and dancing.

    this still happens to this day and so therefore i do not see, and wil never agree with the assertion that national day has been killed.

    if Kaelan were to say that the political element of national day has been killed then i would agree, but i would then add that I FOR ONE AM THANKFUL FOR IT!!

    and just for the record I have no political allegiance. rather I consider myself a man of the town and a realist!

    ReplyDelete
  49. El Maravilla

    Then take care what you write ... National day is about more!

    ReplyDelete
  50. I will ask Kaelan a question and i hope you reply hand on heart ..

    Kaelan, you claim that many people now prefer to go to spain on ND, do you honestly believe that this is a direct consequence of the lack of a political rally on national day?

    ReplyDelete
  51. El Maravilla

    I will answer that question. It is down to the belief espoused by the GSD that Gibraltar has achieved Self Determination and there is nothing else to seek. Now the GSD (in the form of the Chief Minister) have gone back on that and said there is a road to travel down before Gibraltar has achieved its final status.

    The Chief Minister has floated the possibility of an Andorran model. He has not enlarged on it or explained any detail of how it would be applied to Gibraltar. If that is to be the GSD policy, it is incumbent on him to say and explain what exactly he means.

    Other parties have explained their own position. The GSD are in government, thus it has a greater responsibility to the people and the electorate to precisely explain their position, not just say "we will not do it if the people do not want us to do it" ... that is cowardly the GSD having first floated the idea!

    ReplyDelete
  52. Robert, thanks for your answer.

    You have no basis with which to back up that answer. if that were the case, then the GSLP led rally would have received huge support, at the very least from its own supporters.! it didnt....why...becuase the people arent interested in the political diatribe. its the booze sun and fun that they want!

    my opinion is that numbers have fallen because after more than 10 years of the same people have decided to spend their bank holiday somewhere else or doing something difference.

    i do not believe it has any political implications. put it this way, i do not consider the chain of thought to be:
    "its ok we dont have to be in Gib for national day anymore as we have now achieved self determination"

    i think its more like "estoy cansado de national day lets go shopping in spain or to the beach in tarifa!"

    ReplyDelete
  53. ps different not difference before the grammar brigade start attacking"!

    ReplyDelete
  54. El Maravilla

    You miss the point ... If the GSD believe there is a road to travel before Gibraltar achieves its final constitutional and/or international status it is their political responsibility:

    (a) to tell the electorate what it is;

    (b)to engender sufficient interest; and

    (c) to inform the electorate of their strategy to achieve it, e.g. is it talking with Spain or the UK (bearing in mind the Despatch to the 2006 Constitution).

    This takes us back to National Day and its political purpose that was scotched by the GSD. Where they left it is that we had arrived at our destination with the 2006 Constitution, now they say we have not, so, very simple, where are they leading Gibraltar to? Andorra style and if so with what adaptations? It is for the CM/GSD to tell Gibraltar ...

    What we have is not the "Silence of the Lambs", it is the "Silence of the Ministers" but, there again, perhaps they are lambs? Let us hope that the end of the journey is not "The Slaughter of the Lambs".

    ReplyDelete
  55. El Maravilla.

    Those who know me will tell you that I may be many things but what I am NOT is a LIAR.

    I would NEVER have posted such comments if I did not deem them to be accurate and truthful.

    Please spare me the “I am apolitical” bulls%^t because we both know this is a blatant lie. We have ‘drawn our swords’ in the past and your stance has always been PRO GSD. Conke dejate de rollo colega.

    Furthermore if you were indeed “a man of town” or “realist” as you SELF proclaim, you would not say such things as those listed below:

    “all they (and i include myself) cared about was having a good time, drinking vast amounts of alcohol and dancing”
    “if Kaelan were to say that the political element of national day has been killed then i would agree, but i would then add that I FOR ONE AM THANKFUL FOR IT!!”

    How can you state such atrocities? Don’t you care about your people? Is that all you perceive them as being? Apathetic drunks! Come on Mr. Maravilla you can’t POSSIBLY mean such things??

    National day is NOT only about getting drunk and partying. It is about UNITING our people; it is about celebrating out BRITISH roots!! It is about saying NO TO SPAIN!!

    For the love of God man! I shouldn’t even have to state such things! They should be common knowledge!

    Your statements are a PRIME example about what is wrong with the Gibraltar of today. The number one reason WHY I have been ranting and raving on LLW for so long now!!

    Due to the GSD propaganda “machine” there are too many people that think just like YOU! Indifferent and ANTI-nationalist, SHAME on you mister! Selfish, arrogant and deluded, it seems to me that the ONLY person you care about is yourself.

    Don’t you have a conscience? Don’t you care about the future of our generations to come?

    Can’t you force yourself to contemplate the “bigger picture", even if it is only for one split second? Everything does not simply revolve around you sabe?

    Regards,


    K

    ReplyDelete
  56. LW, I think you miss the point of what Maravilla is saying: la mayoria de la gente ven ND como un dia de cachondeo y tu celebrate their llanito ways, or as a bank holiday, punto. Very few see it as a 'political rally'/'should not be a political rally' day. Your intellectualisation of ND is very interesting and valid, however most people no lo ven asi.

    ReplyDelete
  57. Anonymous 18:02.

    Exactly my point.

    A lot of people "no lo ven asin" because they have been told constantly for years now (by our OWN Government) NOT to care and sadly its starting to work.

    ReplyDelete
  58. Anonymous 18:02

    No my dear it is you who miss the point.

    National Day was all about celebrating and achieving self determination. The GSD said we have achieved it with the 2006 Constitution and the attendant referendum, so there was no further need for a political rally. I agree with that,

    Now the GSD say we have not reached the final status for Gibraltar so logic dictates that the GSD tell us what status that is. Once the GSD tell us we can restore National Day to its political origins.

    Es facil: si hemos llegados (como pensamos algunos) ya sta, si no, como dice el GSD, ke nos digan a donde nos llevan ...

    ReplyDelete
  59. To anon 18;03, po yo si and its the first time I am participating on this topic. I believe that whose trying to justify this GSD governments deminution of National Day are exactly those who are under the illusion that being Nationalist or showing any sense of Nationhood think that it's a show xenophobia or of right wing nationalism. They are probably disciples of Paco Oliva and we all know his inkling.

    For me and I think the vast majority of people in Gib are passionate about their homeland, colours and flag which symbolises our identity and one day celebrating and showing who you are and what we aspire to is the right way forward.

    We celebrate who we are by dressing up in red and white by partying,being together and showing the world (obviously not literally before all those pychofans have a go at me) that we are different to Spain, UK or any other country.

    We show again the world what we aspire to by having politicians saying to it's populus the direction we should be aiming for.

    So it is now becoming clear by the remarks above that the GSD supporters or at least those who are participating in this blog that either they happy to follow the GSD policy of shared Head of State or that it is actually the GSD policy. Therefore the National Day rally which was a show of who we are Gibraltarian British is an obstacle to they goal. Why because it will annoy the pretenders to being there other Head of State.

    Whichever way you look at it what I read into all those above who are blindly defending the diminution of National Day and also the Joint Sovereignty have actually now showing the same colour that Peter Cumming showed when he stood for election on this own on a joint sovereignty ticket.

    The difference between Peter Cumming and the CM/GSD is that Peter Cumming is honest and straight and although I do not agree with him we all know where we stand whilst the CM/GSD party twist and turn and try to worm themselves to try to confuse and basically being deceitful (policitcally talking of course)all and sundry.

    The good thing about this blog is not only that one can speak their minds about issues posted but even as anonymous we can see what the GSD elites trends are and more importantly what their pysche is.

    Non-nationalist, willing to negotiate their birth right basically Pansistas. One warning Hong Kong was given up not because of the lease issue but because they were more interested in the economy (ie money) than their political advancement as people.

    Why has Peter Caruana in the past told us that the sovereignty of Gib is not negotiable not even for economical gain. Empty promises which we now know he is not committed to and is willing to negotiate with none other than SPAIN!!??

    ReplyDelete
  60. Ghost says:

    There are some very radical points of view which I believe are misguided and can only be politically motivated. I find the national day issue has raised some interesting points. Robert as always and in his wisdom reverts to the reasoning that the end of the political rally aspect of National Day is because the GSD insists that self determination has been achieved, and he would be right to argue this in the context of what ND started out as over 20 years ago now.

    We are in a very different position today and have achieved a great deal since the days when we truly were under political pressure from both the U.K and Spain. The purpose of ND in its original form has in my view essentially been met and the 2006 constitution which has now become the focus of such refuge for the GSLP and Robert is evidence of this. In other words, the political rally that was ND served its purpose at the time and rallied many U.K MP's and even Spanish NGO's and other parties to help our cause and our right to express our wishes. We have arrived at a different level and playing a very different game in which shouting and rallying is no longer required, that battle has been won.

    What I found fascinating is that although ND started out as a political rally, it slowly evolved into a different spirit along the years and particularly in the past 6 years, in which almost everyone I know commented on the fact that they saw no reason for further political machinations and much preferred to enjoy the day as a celebration of our people and our community and our rich culture. Evidence of this can be seen by the fact that numbers at the political rally are indeed low and serve only to show the desperation of the opposition to seek attention and refute anything and everything for the sake of politicking. This is a great shame and a disservice to a modern democracy.

    My references to the positive changes of ND in no way suggests that our political battles are either gone or are to be ignored, but quite simply, that the way we defend ourselves and make our case has evolved beyond ND. I find this refreshing and a clear sign of our political, social and economic maturity.

    I have also been entertained by what can indeed be refereed to as BNP type thoughts and radicalism that suggests we ought to be thinking about riots or demonstrations (Robert palpitates at the the thought I am sure - he will reminisce the old days). I think Robert manages a tough ask in terms of what should and should not be intimated. There are countries where demonstrations, riots, social unrest and anger manifests themselves and where quite clearly a change is most definitely required. I am proud to say that Gibraltar is far far from this reality.

    If you want a change of Govt, it normally comes with baggage that in most cases gives way to some of the examples of unrest that I refer to above. I sincerely doubt that you could get a handful of people together to demonstrate about anything.....well maybe fishing; and hence why it is not happening. Caruanas time in power may also be baggage enough to warrant change, but when you have an opposition leader with four election losses and a pretender with an equal amount of losses under his belt, its going to be a tough ask from what I would call a sensible and intelligent electorate.

    G

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  61. Ghost

    If i had not formed the opinion that you are such a right wing thinker I could have sworn that you had been trained in Marxist Leninist dialectical propaganda techniques :)

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  62. Ghost says;
    If only you knew Robert.
    Y ese Evo que.....maybe one day we might sit with that capitalist messenger we have found ourselves and put this world to right ah..:)
    Merry Christmas mate - to you and all of you sad people with nothing better to do than prance around on this sorry excuse of a blog...:)
    G

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  63. Ghost

    You could tell me!

    El Evo esperando para compartirlo con tigo ...

    Sad but always smiling in my case ... you seem to do well smiling also ...

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  64. I write anonymously for fear of retribution at a personal and professional level.

    What has irritated me more than anything in this whole Andorra saga is the CM and his satellites have attempted to paper over the cracks of his slip-up in Seville.

    A straightforward apology would have sufficed along the lines of "sorry, I had no right to express that view to a foreign audience without your mandate". I would have respected him more if that had happened, and that would have been the end of the matter in my opinion.

    Instead, like every other stubborn politician, he has tried to justify his self-evident enthusiastic and eloquent oratory by lambasting a former ally, Maurice Xiberras and anyone else who dares criticize his Andorra view. I was against the Labour Party's merger with the GSD for precisely the reason why Maurice has now withdrawn his conditional support for the Government.

    Our Sovereignty is an emotive issue. We are fed up of being asked what we want and who we are. The last thing we need is a justified proclamation of the type Peter Caruana has made. It will only serve to drive a wedge through us, through our community, through our families.

    We know we are Gibraltarian, we know we are British. We do not need any more referenda on the subject. Twice we have emphatically declared to the world that we do not want a constitutional relationship with Spain. All we want is to be good neighbours. We do not have to send confused signals out that we may be willing to change our fundamental status and be open to offers.

    I am no nationalist, certainly not the type Paco Oliva predictably harps on about with the aide of my taxes in the Chronic. In fact I favour internationalism within a democratic and human rights sphere. And yes, when appropriate, pooling sovereignty in a group of nations is by far a better option than an entrenched and expansionist nationalistic thinking of the type many Spaniards keep aspiring to vis-a-vis Gibraltar.

    But if all the CM was doing, as the late Sir Joshua's daughter in the Chronic said, was "putting options on the table" then we can safely assume that his declaration was well meant and will become formal GSD policy.

    If that is the case I know which party I will NOT be voting for at the next election.

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  65. Anon 00:00.
    Were u this irritated when joe bossano sent his squad to Andorra in order to consider the model for Gib. Did u get this iritated when he u turned on the constitution in 2006? Should he give us an apology too?
    This Andorra situation is just another example of how desperate the GSLP are to find some ground and the lack of any substance they have had over the past four election defeats.
    U are attacking the very person who has achieved the political security and economic success that the GSLP were not able to secure. Do u really think this new tack will get you the respect, integrity and seriosness that you so severly lack?

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  66. "I was against the Labour Party's merger with the GSD for precisely the reason that Maurice has now withdrawn his conditional support for the Government."

    Devolved integration and limiting the Chief Minister's term of office to eight years?

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  67. Maybe we should give a thought to no further application to pursue politics after 1,2,3 or 4 election defeats.

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  68. Anonymous 12:27

    I beg to differ!

    Persistence is the KEY! ;)

    Merry Xmas and a Happy New Year to all!

    Regards,

    K

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  69. Anon 23 December 2010 08:22 who do you think you are - another henchman or chief whip of the GSD?

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