There are politicians that consider the electorate react to their policies and manifestos. These politicians believe that the power of their intelligence, policies and rational argument make people decide how they will vote at a general election. Clearly there are some voters who do decide based on these factors but, anecdotally, it seems to me that such voters are in fact a minority.
Speaking from observation and experience only (before mathematicians, statisticians, sociologists and students of political trends start to argue against the theory that I am about to expound on scientific grounds) I believe that, in reality, the decision of many to vote for one party or another is not such a rationally thought out decision. It is an emotional one. I will explain my theory.
Undoubtedly there are those who have strong sociological (and so essentially emotional) tendencies to vote for the relative right (GSD) and those who have the opposite tendencies to vote for the relative left (GSLP/Libs). In Gibraltar this tendency seems to favour the GSLP/Libs who have maintained a steady 35% (at least) following at every election won by the GSD. The GSD have clearly managed a majority in the past 4 elections, so there is no room to scorn the existence of a sizeable relative right wing vote either. It is my belief that this basic support for each party gives a slight advantage to the GSLP/libs.
In 1996 the GSD's win was based on a major loss of confidence in and emotional reaction against the GSLP by the electorate for well rehearsed and known reasons that I do not intend to repeat here. Although some of this support has been retained by the GSD, it is evident from past results that it has dwindled at each subsequent election. This loss of support is due not just to the natural wastage that prejudices an incumbent Government because people adversely affected by its decisions and acts are repulsed from again voting in favour of the governing party but also to another important factor, which is demographics.
Because the support for the GSD was not in the main ideological but rather for reasons of convenience and emotion and because older voters have passed away and a large number of younger voters are now enfranchised, there has been an "emotional" change. These younger voters will not have been prejudiced by the decisions and actions of the last GSLP administration. Also these young voters will emotionally favour change because change is what youth usually yearns for. The more important factor is that the leadership of the GSLP/Libs is seen to be more "local" than Peter Caruana.
The swing does not have to be big for there to be a change in Government. The difference between the two main parties at the last election was approximately 650 votes. If on the basis of my observations 325 have changed their minds then the vote would be even. My belief (as supported by recent opinion polls) is that more have changed their minds, additionally if one adds the youth vote, there is an explanation for the recent poll results.
Those who believe that the power of the GSD's arguments and policies will change the result at the next election are mistaken. It is difficult to change the emotions of a crowd by such tactics. If the GSD want to have a chance they need to make fundamental changes that will change the "emotion" of the electorate.
Another good piece Robert.
ReplyDeleteLike you I would point to demographics as a key factor in the apparent swing away from the GSD and towards the GSLP/Libs. The GSD have made a habit of pointing to the GSLP's past record as "evidence" that they are not to be trusted again. That has worked well for them in the past few elections, but as newer (and younger) voters become enfranchised, there will be a little less of that negative "collective memory" to appeal to.
The GSD are being victims of the "desgaste politico" which affects all incumbent governments who have simply been in power too long, but they are also hardly helped by the position Caruana (in particular) has chosen to take on certain issues (the age of consent issue comes to mind).
The traditionally liberal "youth" will often react against ultra-conservative positions of that type.
Fred says:
ReplyDeleteNice thesis Robert.
The kids who are eligible to vote now would have been 4 or 5 when the GSD got in and so will not remember the GSLP administration.
These young people are liberally minded and will want change to support their social values. Moreover, they feel disenfranchised by the GSD socio-economic policies.
The problem of course is that you can't really get a fag paper between the various individuals within the political class, as evidenced by the contributors dominating the blog at the moment. We may well end up voting for an illusion of change.
Ho-hum, here we go again for another turn of the political wheel.
I sense a real mood for change brought about mostly by a GSD Government that is fast running out of steam.The final straw for Caruana could be (as it was for Hassan in 1988)the airport.Very different scenarios, I know, but also strangely similar.
ReplyDeleteBack in '88 a stale AACR backed an airport deal which proved to be the final nail in their political coffin. That set against a background of severe social problems, particularly in the area of housing. The AACR had nothing new to offer and Gibraltar's youth in particular turned massively against them.
Fast forward to 2010 and we have a similarly stale GSD spending tens of millions of pounds on an airport which we don't really need and certainly can't afford.Housing is once again a thorny issue with more and more young Gibraltarians living in cramped conditions with their parents or moving across the border.
The GSD (like the AACR) are increasingly perceived as the party for the 'haves', and the 'have nots' are undoubtedly turning against them 'en masse'. I agree that we are seeing a new generation of voters expressing their discontent and this is increasingly looking like the catalyst for the GSD's downfall...Maximus
Fred says:
ReplyDeleteMr Caruana could yet have a road to Damascus moment.
If we suspend our cynicism for a couple of minutes we could argue that his visit to Laguna Estate was a genuine effort to get to know people's views. I know that if you talk to the chap as a person he listens, what the hell happens afterwards I do not know. Perhaps it's not Mr Caruana, but rtaher the folk he has attracted around him. No se.
I heard a Bishop on Radio 4 say yesterday that his discriminatory views on gays had been wrong and he has now changed this.
There is hope for everyone... even the England team! Can we talk football now?!
Didn't hear that one, but was the Bishop talking about his own discriminatory views on gays or Caruana's !!!!!!!....Maximus
ReplyDeleteIn 1996 I was 8. I will be voting for the first time in 2011 and I will be voting GSLP. We see Caruanism in school, church and in my living room at 8 30 when I watch GBC Newswatch.
ReplyDeleteThis is very interesting Anon. to hear it striaght from the mouths of the youth. Please tell us why you object to the Government,( in a nutshell). We all have our different reasons for wanting a change but I would like to hear what new voters really think. Is it an anti-Goverment stance, anti-Caruana, pro-GSLP, what is it?
ReplyDeleteFred says:
ReplyDeleteTo Anon 00:21: As a dithering agnostic it gladdens me to see that there may just be a more humane faction with the Church than the fundementalists that seem to be in control.
I sympathise with your political views, but I would offer a word of caution if you will allow me to patronise you.
Those of us slightly older have grown up with the current crop of politicians - "de la misma quinta". We have seen their good points, but also their very bad ones.
All I would ask is that you hold whatever politician you vote for to account. Think critically and be robust. Belief is a very poor substitute for thought, but politicians want you to believe and submit. It is much better to think and choose.
Fred says:
ReplyDeleteRebecca: are we supporting England for the World Cup? Do we have a chance?"
I think it will all come down to this. Will the voters trust Bossano not to make the same dogs dinner of it he made last time. I mean, is it right to take a risk here? This is Gibraltar's future at stake.
ReplyDeleteThe greater risk might be to have NO change, whether it comes from within the GSD or elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteTrust is a consideration to be taken into account for ALL parties. People tend to learn lessons and not fall into the same trap twice. Don't you think the GSLP learnt their's? I do.
I hear a lot of talk about change, but I don't see or hear any concrete suggestions from anyone! I have neither seen nor heard of any visions (other than Caruana's "(air)Field of Dreams" - with Kevin Costner's ghosts saying to him "If you build it they will come"), so how about some REAL ideas for a change? Is there anybody out there?! A small voice.
ReplyDeleteAquamarine says:
ReplyDeleteI would like to congratulate LLanito World on what is becoming an excellent, well managed blog. A forum for genuine debate.
I agree with LW that we all recognise that there is need for change " whether it comes from within the GSD or elsewhere".
I do not agree that the GSLP have learnt from their mistakes. They are still, to this day, fourteen years after being ousted from power, being led by the same leader, who has never publicly acknowleged those mistakes. Who has led the GSLP through four election losses and who's policies at each consecutive election have consisted of no more than offering money to pensioners & other target voters in return for votes!
Now, perhaps only a year away from an election, the GSLP still has no clear leader, Mr Bossano aparently still plans to stand as a candidate, in case his people "mess up"?! At the age of around 70?? Is this "change"?
Fred. We need to get LW to write a separate blog about the World Cup and then we can discuss what England's chances may be, or Spain's for that matter...More importantly, is there going to be a big screen up in Casemates like there was last World Cup?
ReplyDeleteWith regard to politics: The 'No Change' would be terrible for Gibraltar, I agree entirely with you LW. Caruana should have groomed his successor long ago so even if we didn't have a change of governing party we would have had a change of CM.
The next General Election could be won by the Party that convinces the electorate that it has the imagination to turn Gibraltar into a place which is pleasant to live in and at the same time financially viable. I think that it can be done and that when it happens we will all look back on the current economic ideology as an aberration. For too long successive governments have balanced the books with the nefarious proceeds of brutalist urban development and the air headed destruction or abuse of open spaces. This has benefited a few and marred the quality of life of the majority. My fear is that come the Election no one in our ageing and complacent political elite (salvese el que pueda) will come up with a long term plan for the future of our city and people.
ReplyDeleteThere are 1,700 new voters every four years and most of them must be young people. How these vote will decide the next election. For all the reasons you suggest this is fertile ground for the GSLP. The worst possible mistake the GSD could make is raise alcohol, tobacco and sex to 18 and they are playing strait into the hands of the Opposition who are silent on this. Feetham is no fool and he sees how critical this is. Religious fundamentalism within the GSD will lead to the loss of the next election.
ReplyDeleteLW
ReplyDeleteI can't help but think that your reasoning behind the GSLP/Libs winning is centered on the gamblers fallacy (hidden behind demographics), you know the school of thought that goes something like - "the last 4 flips of the coin has been heads, this time it will be tails".
Anon Jason:
ReplyDeleteI will be able to vote at the next General Elections for the first time. My Grandfather on my mothers side was a staunch supporter of the GSLP. My mother was GSLP until she was convinced by my father to vote GSD much to the disgust of my grandfather.
I see Joe Bossano as he walks to his office swinging his briefcase. People shout greetings to him from their cars as they go by. Workmen on lorries call out his name and wave he always waves back. Sometimes they stop to offer him a lift. I have a fondness for the man, i will vote for him at the next elections.Is this an emotional reaction LLanito World? By the way I have already convinced my mother who she has to vote for.
Hi Orwell:
ReplyDeleteYou may well be right but the flippancy that you display is precisely one factor that is lossing and will lose the election for the GSD.
Fred:
ReplyDeleteTo anon Jason: I can fully relate to what you describe. I even asked my family not to vote for the new constitution because it gave to much power to the CM.
I think that Mr Bossano is admired, even by some of those in the FCO with whom he has had to deal. However, I for one felt very betrayed by what he allowed to develop around him when he was in government. I also can't forget the Kaverner incident.
At present everything is telling me that I should vote GSLP at the next one, but Joe's more mecurial side still worries me. I am also concerned by Mr Picardo's penchant to take risks and to be dismissive of very real factors that affect our situation locally and internationally.
I will not vote GSD because of the religious element; will not vote PDP because it needs more muscle; and, am finding hard to forgive the GSLP.
Robert...help!
Fred says:
ReplyDeletePerhaps we should adopt this song as the anthem for the transition from the GSD... jejejejeje!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrROdpJb4Ek&feature=fvw
Joking aside: Aquamarine makes a fair point.
But we don't even know who will lead the GSLP and whether that person stands up to close scrutiny. When the time comes people will ask the question who is the best person to lead Gibraltar. You know what you get with PC. Gibraltar has done well over the last 14 years. It has been transformed socially and economically. The person who says he is young and delights in seeing JB swinging his brief case in the morning presumably would want him to lead the GSLP. Others may want a change. The timing of that change is another critical issue as I cannot see the viability of changing leaders after an election is called and that is possible. Add this to the fact I cannot see clear leadership and direction in critical areas; will the Tripartite talks continue? Even though Governments lose elections and Oppositions rarely win them, I see no clear direction, leadership or vision emanating from the GSLP. When you then look at the GSD there is no doubt as to who will leader whatever the supporters of Feetham or Montegriffo will say. That is not a criticism of these gentlemen who both have their qualities. It's just reality. It is not surprising that after 14 years polls turn but the reality is that the Gov is doing more this term than in the previous 3. When the houses are complete, the terminal, road improvements and you add that to the fact that when everywhere else in Europe economies have slumped when ours had grown or when pensioners everywhere in Europe are worrying about their futures when ours have never had it so good and there is a good story to tell. There is no better communicator than PC and you underestimate him at your peril.
ReplyDeleteIf the the GSD are ousted for the GSLP in the next election, it is because they have lost the election, not because the GSLP have won it.
ReplyDeleteIf the GSD really are a party, and if that party really do think that a GSLP Government would be a disaster for Gibraltar (as they continually tell us it would be), then the party should have some cojones and oust its leader, before the people oust him.
Those who might be ousters, should give it some serious thought.
Anon 18.35.
ReplyDeleteThe airport is an empty building waiting to happen.
The trafalgar interchange cost £2 million and isn;t going to work - it will make traffic worse
Once the OEM houses are ready people will realise that the new PRISON is better built, better located, and basically more pleasant to live in (meanwhile people who made millions out of companies that went bust building it are still flavour of the month at GSD HQ)
PC may be a good communicator. But he is also an arrogant know-it-all.
Having stared defeat in the face on election night 2007 (albeit erroneously but those who know KNOW that he thought he was going to lose) and then won by 650 votes, he thinks he can tell the electorate "this time its going to be different" and then go on to become WORSE THAN EVER.
Gibraltar IS TIRED of watching Gibraltar grind to a halt whilst we wait for one man to make all the decisions.
CARA CARAUANA then has the gall to go on TV and say (As he always says) that its not true and he doesn't tell everyone what to do.
CONIO CARUANA GIBRALTAR IS A SMALL PLACE AND AFTER 14 YEARS IN GOVERNMENT THERE ISN@T ONE VOTER ON THE ROCK THAT HASN'T HAD TO WAIT FOR YOU TO PERSONALLY TAKE A DECISION ABOUT SOME TINY THING THAT AFFECTS THEIR LIFE AND QUITE FRANKLY WE'RE SICK OF IT!
The '7 Days' GSD propaganda rag is now firmly on the pensioners bandwagon!! Three cheers for PC and his caring Government...A load of tosh and clear evidence that they are starting to panic. As Sir Alex would say "It's squeaky bum time" !!!!!!!!!!!!! ...Maximus
ReplyDeleteAquamarine says:
ReplyDeleteTo one of the many anonymousers...The airport, the Trafalagar interchange,the housing are all part of the GSD "vision", which they assume responsability for. It is in no ones interest for any of these ventures to fail, but, if rather than "vision" they turn out to be "folly", then the GSD will pay there dues at the next election & this brings me to my point.
They at least have a vision & take responsability. Call it arrogance, call it leadership?
It is very easy to sit on the other side of the political divide & just complain, winge & GSD bash....what we need to see from both the GSLP & the PDP are their policies & how they will defend them, in a nutshell, proactive leadership.
I think the PDP made a good start this week with their visit to and subsequent appraisal of the Upper Town. Yes, I know, the PDP won't get elected but I nevertheless think it was a very good initiative to highlight this issue.
ReplyDeleteThat relates to one of the main reasons Keith Azopardi was forced to leave Government: Peter spent too many years focused on foreign affairs and waited far too long to start building new homes, the new hospital, shake up social services etc. Although good relations with Spain are no doubt also important, the above are the issues that really matter to people.
In a way Peter didn't have much choice but it was all of his own making. The signals he sent to Spain with his support of the Brussels Process led eventually to the Matutes proposals and then the Joint Sovereignty proposals. In a way you can't blame the much-maligned British and Spanish Govts for thinking that Peter would at least go some of the way along with their proposals. After all he had supported Brussels and it took him many years to finally declare them "dead and buried". I think it was only when confronted with a massive 'No to Brussels' banner during his speech at a National Day rally in the Naval Ground.
To the detriment of local issues, therefore, Peter had to spend an inordinate amount of our time and of our money trying to defeat something that he, in my view, was partly responsible for. I constantly hear people complaining about the cost of the new Airport Terminal - and this indeed may finally lead to his downfall - but the biggest waste of money for me (in relative terms) was that advertising blitz in the UK trying to defeat the Joint Sovereignty proposals in 2002. Over £1 million of our money (comparatively small compared to the new Terminal, I know, but it was a large amount at the time) was spent placing full-page advertisements in UK newspaper. This huge expense could have been avoided if the GSD had not sent signals to Spain and the UK by supporting Brussels.
And the time saved by avoiding that huge distraction could then have been devoted to more pressing local issues closer to home much sooner: housing, health, social services etc.
Aquamarine
ReplyDeleteThe point is that Caruana wants to veto the colour of my underpants, but he doesn't want me to have any say in PUBLIC decisions that he takes on my behalf.
The Airport, the Trafalgar "Interchange" (two round abouts 2 million pounds), OEM Housing, he doesn't want me to have ANY SAY.
So he doesn't publish any plans, conduct any public consultation, ask people what they want or think, or EVEN just to a goddam public display of what he has already decided he is going to do!
AQUAMARINE have YOU seen any detailed plans of what our airport, devils tower road, tunnel under airport, eastern beach will look like after they have finished? NO . £50 million on an airport and not even the decency to tell me what precisely this is going on. FCUK OFF. That is scandalous. I boil with rage when I think about it.
Did they ask anybody living in Alemeda estate whether or not removing ALL the cross walks by the round about in picadilly was going to PISS THEM OFF ... NO BECAUSE I AM ONE OF THEM AND I WALK TO TOWN AND NOW WHERE AM GOING TO WALK NOW? I DON@T KNOW - because nobody has had the common decency to at least let me know what the plan is - let alone ask me if I have any contribution! (AND DON'T YOU DARE DARE TELL ME ABOUT THE TRAFFIC PLAN ... it didn't have not ONE PLAN IN IT! except for that tiny thiing that you can't event see properly anything in it!!!
The only other place they put pictures were tiny ones in their manifesto THAT IS IT AND THAT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH BECAUSE HE IS SPENDING MY MONEY!
CARUANA stop taking everyones tiny decisions for them and start making public decisions PUBLIC...don't sell our coastline in backroom deals to some cronies who want to make money from cruelty.
AND NO AQUAMARINE I AM NOT A GSLP VOTER . When you say they should start making their policies public you are absolutely right...THEY SHOULD START DOING THEIR JOB and stop treating the House (sorry Parliament Caruana changed that too, thanks Caruana for taking another tiny decisions that pissed off so many people who liked the fact that we had a House of Assembly)....where was I ... yes GSLP stop takin your House allowance and treating it like beer money and start using it for the public good
Alex said:
ReplyDeleteDidn't Azopardi decide not to stand because Peter Caruana would not step aside in 2003 and then waited for an excuse to leave the GSD which came with the merger. That is what PC said on election night. The reality is that he fancied his chances of going it alone and failed badly. Your attempts to make him out to be a lovely principled fellow betrays your real motive: the damage you feel he will do the GSD by taking votes from that party.
The reality is that in 2003 PC had spent the best part of a term defending Gibraltar against the JS deal by Spain and the UK, so he wanted a shot at dealing with the domestic issues he had not been able to deal with during that term. There was nothing unreasonable in that.
As for your analysis on PC being responsible for the JS agreement, this is GSLP tosh at its worst. You may want to look at others who were going round main street saying that we had to get on the bus before it left the bus stop and try and get the best deal possible before a deal was negotiated without us. I am not going to mention any names but some are also rabidly anti PC because of it. These signals and a Blair Government with a warped sense of conviction politics combined to create the biggest crisis in our history. PC fought this in manner which was nothing short of genius.
He then accepted that he had sacrified local issues in the process. But the crisis was not of his making, he stepped into the breach admirably and the expense was well worth it. There are other issues you will find more fertile. The problem with you GSLP fanatics is that you cannot accept that you were wrong about PC when you warned that he was going to sell Gibraltar to Spain. He has not and will not.
And please stop pandering to the foreign office!
I have no doubt that PC and/or his foot soldiers regularly have a peek at these blogs and may find them uncomfortable reading!! The very fact that this debate can be held at all (with any measure of credibility) is a sure sign that the tide is finally turning after 14 long years!!
ReplyDeleteThe young first time voter (who comments before) makes interesting observations about JB. Joe won't lead the GSLP into the next elections but still commands the respect and admiration of many.A remarkable achievement in itself considering the 'filth' piled upon him by the righteous 'right' and their overseas allies. JB made mistakes (and what politician doesn't??)but his achievements far outweighed the negatives. He was, and still is, perceived as a man of the people which is something aloof 'snob' PC has never been, or will ever be!!
I smile when I remember GSD accusations in 1996 that the GSLP was a 'one man band'and that their 'team' (lol)would collectively save us. Enter PC (The guy who came second on their slate!)and a fresh new era of paranoid freakish control!! For Pete's sake, he even 'ruled' on the choice of toilet paper supplier to Government offices!!!!!!!!!!!
It is time for a change and whether that will be for the better (or not)can only be speculated upon until PC is ousted.I don't think that anything could be worse than what we presently have and consequently voting PC out of office is the only sensible option....Maximus
Don't get deluded Alex....PC did what he had to do or he would have been strung up!! Going with his PAG background would have been a 'kamikaze' move!! Max...
ReplyDeleteFred says:
ReplyDeleteI fear that, intemperate as s/he is I am inclined to agree with Anonymous 22:40, particularly on the question of housing.
Simple due diligence in the UK would have revealed facts around those involved with OEM. I am afraid that the new affordable housing will look like some of the worse off immigrant parts of East London within 5-years; the build is just of very inferior quality.
I also think that many of the deals in relation to property would not survive with a good reputation in the light of a solid audit.
I will go further: many in the GSD vote for that party because they tend to sneer at other "coarser" Gibraltarians. Yes, there is a "class" divide, and the GSD has made it worse. Y lo peor es que a los Llanitos nos gusta las tonterias, el panzismo y la hipocresia.
But my hand is still averse to voting GSLP...
Well said Fred...There is a certain 'snob' culture attached to many GSD voters i.e. I vote for PC as he is smarter and posher than all you 'ruffians'. In my view that is the best possible motive for 'biting your personal bullet'and voting the GSLP back in...Max...
ReplyDeleteFred says:
ReplyDeleteMax, biting bullets is never pleasant.
I also fear that Mr Picardo may be worse than Mr Caruana as regards arrogance, and has a temperament prone to taking risks that I find unsavoury. And, I do like talking to Mr Caruana on a one-to-one basis.
But sometimes has to be done Fred...I don't like the kind of 'tribal' class divided Gib we now have. I blame PC totally for that and I don't see that Picardo (or anyone else except PC) would take us down that road.
ReplyDeleteGSD policy has always been to divide and then conquer...That suits them, but not Gibraltar!...Max
Fred says:
ReplyDeleteMax, I understand what you are saying, but it seems to me a bit unmeasured to blame Mr Caruana for everything - life simply does not work that way. Let us not forget that the GSLP adminsitration also did a good job of dividing the "working class" vote with the Winston boys.
Perhaps Robert will stand as an independent, even if it sis just for shits and giggles, and I will vote for him as a protest vote.
For now I will sit and watch to see who convinces me - fanatics of any shade will not.
To the Anonymous who posted "Religious fundamentalism within the GSD will lead to the loss of the next election."
ReplyDeleteNever a truer word said.
Hi Fred... I don't believe I blamed Caruana for everything! I was commenting on the social divide created since he came into power...Winston boys were plying their trade when Hassan was in power, but in those days it was never an issue as Hassan was a 'poodle'...It became one when it was necessary for FCO to remove JB, in the same way that they would not hesitate to oust PC if that suited them!!...Max
ReplyDeleteAlex said:
ReplyDeleteGibraltar has come a long way for the FCO to remove anyone. This is one of PC's better achievements. The influence of the FCO in local politics is miniscule compared to what it was in the 80s and 90s. Just look at the Convent; they have been totally emasculated in their influence on local politics and politicians. I am not an independist myself but this trend has been healthy. The new Constitution which most of you probably opposed, was a watershed event. The FCO probably regret giving into PC on the New Constitution because of the amount of devolution for Gibraltar and the consequential loss of influence for the Governor and through him the FCO. That is one of PCs achievements and a legacy to future political leaders.
Finally to call a deadman a "poodle" and one who gave so much to this community is crass.
Hi Alex...If you really believe that FCO don't still pull the strings here then you are an eternal optimist!!Get real....PC, JB and JH were all pressured by FCO and if you believe otherwise that's your choice. Like it or not, JH was a 'poodle' and PC (your hero) has only continued the pedigree... PC's 'tough talk' (for local consumption) and yes 'Bwana' behind the scenes!!....Max
ReplyDeleteFred says:
ReplyDeleteAlex, I think that much of the Convent's loss of influence has to do as much with the overrall downgrading of the post as with the constitutional developments that you allude to. Noteworthy as Mr Caruana's acheivement's are it is also true that he stood on the shoulder of giants - Sir Joshua and Mr Bossano, both of whom in their own way fought for greater self-government.
Max, I really do think that you overrate the FCO. Influence simply does not work in the way you imagine, for starters one must be open to influence, and to be fair to Mr Caruana I do not think he is as pliable as either Exteriores or the FCO would like.
Max & Alex, I am afraid that yours is the type of partisan exchange that puts the rest of us off anything to do with either Mr Caruana or Mr Bossano. Politics to me is a cold contract, emotion has no role in my scheme of thinking.
Oh, and please go easy on the disparaging terms.
Notes on Quotes says..
ReplyDeleteAlex, if you want to fully understand the fundamental truth of the new constitution then you must listen to the words of Mr Caruana himself…
“The UK regularly passes Orders in Council making laws in the overseas territories, in the case of Gibraltar they have always agreed, at least since we’ve been in office, to allow us to do things by local legislation rather than have them do it by Order in Council”
Newswatch April 15th 2010
Hiding behind the cloak of anonymity I have no hesitation to boldly and loudly ask: WHERE DOES THE HON. F. PICARDOIL STAND ON THE CALL FOR A FORENSIC AUDIT?!!!???
ReplyDeleteI do not understand why we have to wait till 3 weeks before the election for campaigning to begin in ernest...
ReplyDeleteIt's a sorry sight to see parties scrambling about in search of one or two candidates at the very last minute.
Maybe years ago I would have understood, but it's too important a matter now to not take it seriously .
We should be told at least by the end if this year who is going to stand and in what capacity, this would give us time to question and decide and would give our politics a more serious and believable footing.
Otherwise we will just end up with another leader dominated election which is good for no-one...
Darrin McBrush says: For once I do not agree with LW-RV. We cannot make any educated choice on anyone until we know whether the rumours of misconduct in high places about property deals are true or false.
ReplyDeleteOur electoral system delivers the electorate a Hobson's Choice, either a continuation of a GSD Government that has forgotten or ignores it's founding principles or a GSLP Government with bagage and uncertainties. The question to ask oneself is, do I want another 4 years with stale politicians or do I give enthusiastic new ones a chance, knowing that 4 years later I can reverse that decision?
ReplyDeleteEach one of us needs to decide for ourselves, I just do not think the comfort that the GSD seems to have of believing that it is electorally inviolable is good either for democracy or innovation both of which keep a society vibrant.
Unfortunately the choice is limited until a reform of the electoral system occurs (wishful thinking). It's either one or the other, people, eso es lo que hay! And if the GSD are not forced into changing their ways before the next election ...
Anon said: To Jason the young voter, Yes Jason vote with your heart, we the generation of your parents more or less have become too callous, we sometimes can not see because of our prejudices a good man when there is one. We have short memories and we rewrite history. We sometimes need to see through the eyes of the young for a cleare vision of reality. Who says our youth is uncaring.
ReplyDeleteCan Rebecca tell us whether the PDP favours a forensic audit of government land deals? If not can she tell us why not? If the PDP agrees how far in time do they think the forensic audit should go?
ReplyDeleteAlex
ReplyDeleteYou are so wrong. I am not "betraying my real motives" and am not churning out "GSLP tosh at its worst". For the record, I am independent, have never belonged to any political party and have no intention of doing so. Politicians promise the earth but once in power, staying in power becomes in end in itself.
However, we are landed with the adversarial political system we have at present so we have to make the best of it. I agree with Llanito World that it is time for a change, even it we have to kick the GSLP out again after four years. We desperately need change.
The PDP has come up with some interesting initiatives, such as drawing attention to the plight of the Upper Town, but we all know they will all lose their deposits with the exception of Keith Azopardi so the only real alternative is, as Maximus says, to "vote the GSLP back in".
I must say I was surprised to hear that, coming from Maximus. Don't get me wrong, Maxumus, I was a big fan of your weekly column in the NP (unfortunately discontinued seven years ago) and am still a fan of your writings.
It's interesting to see that a number of Labour Party members have left the merged GSD / Labour Party and quietly gone back to their GSLP roots. Begs the question: how many members of the former Labour Party are still with the GSD?
Glob says: There might well be nothing in the rumours of wrongdoing with government tenders and property deals. This will be revealed if there is a forensic audit. On the other hand this could be like the expenses scandal in UK but with bells and knobs on. What say the political parties and their bleeding heart supporters? Nothing? You see if we do not deal with this issue openly people could soon get the impression that other interesting initiatives and "policies" are just a cover up or worse part of a scheme by certain politicians to retain or insert their snouts in the trough.
ReplyDeleteLW,
ReplyDeleteI have only ever voted once in my life, and it was not for the GSD. I voted NGD and I hope that I will be able to do so at the next election.
A very interesting set of exchanges....Wouldn't it be great if Gib politics was even half as vibrant!!!
ReplyDeleteFred, you put me down just as I was beginning to like you!! I am not a 'partisan' and am not a member of any political party, though I have been in the past.My point simply is that it is time for change and recent opinion polls suggest that I am not alone in thinking that!'Disparaging terms'? I have always preferred to call a spade a spade and make no apologies for that.
Alex - I don't know how old you are but in the 1980's the widely held view was that JH was a 'poodle'! Not meaning that he in any way resembled a cute furry little dog, but that the FCO had him in their pocket .The evidence tends to back up that theory...Do I need to quote examples? JH's Brussels agreement and Airport deal support immediately come to mind and they were his ultimate downfall!!
Mark - I enjoyed my time as NP scribe and have always tried to inject a bit of wit into the political arena. In short, we are probably all guilty of taking it too seriously sometimes!! My point about GSLP was that they are the only serious alternative to PC and (I repeat myself)the polls don't usually lie.I think the PDP are doing an admirable job but (I know from first hand experience!!)Gibraltar is and always has been a two party state.
So, in summary, the choice is simple!! ....Max
Perry said....
ReplyDeleteMark, the more I read your post the more you sound like the Picardo's alter ego dispite your protestations of indipendence.
If Maximus is really THE Maximus, he knows more than anyone else who's betrayal was the greatest.
Orwell
ReplyDeleteSorry to disappoint you but you're unlikely to be able to vote for the NGD at the next election. I'm afraid that Charles Gomez, like Lyana Armstrong-Emery before him, lost all credibility when he publicly stated that he would try to field a full slate of candidates and ended up standing on his own.
If you pledge (OK Lyana actually pledged; Charles just said he would try) to field a full slate you really have to field as close to a full slate as possible, hence the PDP's creditable performance with a slate of six out of ten in 2007. If after making a public pledge or statement of intent you then stand alone you lose all credibility. Yes, I too liked a lot of Charles' ideas but the NGD is history, I'm sorry to say.
Perry
I can't understand why you accuse me of being Fabian Picardo's "alter ego" merely because I refuse to join other detractors on this forum in calling him oleaginous etc. I hear everyone say that he cannot be trusted but I cannot join in the chorus because I do not know him well enough.
I would be willing to give him a chance just as perhaps Joe Bossano might be given one last chance to redeem himself as Chief Minister for one last term before retiring.
Llanito World
As usual I mostly agree with you; this time about the demographics of the current poll swing. In 2003 the Labour Party obtained 8 per cent of the vote but subsequently merged with the GSD. However, it seems prominent Labour members such as Daniel Guerrero, Steven Marin and Bill Pisani have gravitated back towards their original home on the left. I am wondering whether Llanito World will agree with me that the return of Labour members within the GSD to the GSLP accounts for part of the swing. Maybe not the full 8 per cent but perhaps half that. As far as I can see Danny, Nigel and possibly also Kim Karnani-Santos are the only former Labour Party members that are still in the GSD. Have the rest gone back to the GSLP and does their return account for part of the swing in the polls, in addition to the demographics factor?
Perry....I do know, but I'm not saying !! ...Max
ReplyDeleteI agree with Orwell and Mark A that Charles Gomez has some pretty radical ideas and in a place like Gibraltar where innovation is as rare as saharan snow, I also hope that Charles will stand for election in 2011. Brunhilde.
ReplyDeletePerry said.....
ReplyDeleteAlter Ego, your obsession with the Labour Party and the Feethams can't be good for your health. The fact that most of us if not all, will continue to be around to oppose you has got to be atleast causing you indigestion. May I recommend Andrew's Liver Salts although you might need something stronger than a simple over the counter remedy.
Anon said:
ReplyDeleteAquamarine, genuine debate ? Is that what you think you are doing? I do not doubt, I know by your comments that you have not read even one GSLP manifesto. You are just repeating GSDS propaganda boring, boring, boring.ZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZ
I repeat: can Rebecca tell us whether the PDP favours a forensic audit of government land deals? If not can she tell us why not? If the PDP agrees how far in time do they think the forensic audit should go?
ReplyDeleteSimon: Rebecca, if you don't answer you will blow to smithereens the PDP mantra that your party offers change. I have high hopes for the PDP please don't tell me that you are as cynical as all the others?
ReplyDeleteMark...to dispel any doubts I would just like to confirm that Steven, Daniel and yours truly were never members of the GSD! Steven was never a member of the Labour Party either and you may recall that he stood as a Lib candidate in the 2003 elections.
ReplyDeleteMay I add (on a different note) that I have no bitterness whatsoever towards Danny F who I still regard as a good friend and I applaud his brave and unique private members bill on the age of consent.Such a shame that (predictably of course) the 'boot licker' fraternity in the GSD didn't have the courage to support it!!!!!!!!!!!
Says a lot about PC's leadership style and the other GSD 'donkeys' who are happy to be subservient and smile broadly as they survey their bank statements!!
I have never feared being on the 'wrong side' of the political divide and welcome any adverse comments that may ensue from this...We are after all advocating freedom of sppech here aren't we ???....Maximus
Dear Maxumus and Llanito World
ReplyDeleteIt was a grave political indictment to see Danny Boy Feetham merge with the GSD. Danny Boy has nothing in common with the GSD. I think Danny Boy should stand again with the Labour Party. If so, he would be a Chief Minister in waiting.
Fabian Picardo cannot be trusted after what he did to Danny Feetham and others who left the GSLP.
Funny how life is, whilst we are all here discussing PC, he is in Ibiza for the long weekend with one of his close (well at least for as long as he is the CM) friends.
ReplyDeleteDespite the various aspersions regarding the oiliness or otherwise of our elected representatives, this blog is proving to be a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stagnant local political environment. If only debates in our House of Assembly (I'm not sure I'll ever get used to calling it any different) were anywhere near the standard of discourse found on these pages... Gibraltar would no doubt then have a Parliament with representatives actually living up to expectations.
ReplyDeleteI agree to some extent with you LW in that the first time voter may partly explain the recent swing to the GSLP/Liberal Alliance. There is also most likely an element of burn out from other voters wishing to see a non-GSD Government.
Like yourself, as an older voter I lament that for the moment the most realistic option for "change" is that of a GSLP/Liberal Government. This statement is not intended as a slight against the good people of the GSLP/Liberal Alliance (or even those in the PDP or GSD). The problem is that whichever party happens to be in power, the same democratic deficits in effective parliamentary debate, checks and balances remain. The Government of the day will always rail road whatever it wants to do through Parliament. Binding agreements or projects with huge price tags may be embarked upon without specific popular mandate or sufficient scrutiny. Decisions for short term party political gain can be made at the long term expense of the greater public interest. There are clearly issues regarding transparency and accountabilty of decisions.
In my view, the current political system severely short changes Gibraltar's citizens. You are on to a good thing LW in advocating a cabinet style (and in my view, cross-party) Government for Gibraltar. I also agree with you that for the moment this is not on the cards. However, it seems to me that the people of Gib may well be coming to the conclusion that a split vote for the most deserving candidates, regardless of party affiliation, may be the best way to go in future. Charles Gomez made significant headway at the last election as an independent. 1210 votes outside the usual block vote pattern are not to be sniffed at. This kind of split voting technique should be encouraged across the board even though it will go against the standard party grain.
The sooner that our Parliament has a proper shake up to allow greater representation, debate, tempering and scrutiny of Government, the better. I think that the the state of Gibraltar's democracy would improve no end if the people of Gibraltar were to adopt this particular emotional response.
Fred says:
ReplyDeletePerhaps PC is doing field research in Ibiza: gay culture, dance/trance/chill sessions - give the man a chance, he may surprise us... then again not.
Lo siento gente, me gusta musho el cashondeo... Max, ya te vere para una copa, que ma se perdio en la guerra. A plague on all their houses.
Robert: hoy tomammos South African Pinotage, y Tokaji Furmint con el postre... a tu salud!
Anon said:
ReplyDeleteMaximus.... do you really think that 'Danny's brave and unique private members bill on the age of consent' would have been brought to parliament without Caruana's approval? You must be living in cuckoo land. The man who controls even the colour of the sunshades in Casemates, allowing a Government Minister to do anything as an individual? This was planned,to be all things to all men. Heads we win, heads we loose. We keep the church happy and we keep the gay community happy.This just shows how cold and calculating the GSD are where votes are concerned. But the electorate are tired of being hoodwinked and manipulated and most of us are not being taken in by their moves any longer. Spirit
Anon said...
ReplyDeleteWhat has anybody ever done to Danny Boy? That I know of, all he has been told is that he is not the best thing since "sliced bread" and that he should wait his turn and not be a queue-jumper. Queue-jumping is not something which is accepted or liked here in Gib.
Just spent ages reading all these posts, have been away from my computer in favour of watching the Eurovision Song Contest I'm afraid to admit.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, we in the PDP haven't spent a lot of time discussing whether we are going to have an audit of Government land deals. We are too busy trying to get our new message across and foster policies and ideas for a better Gibraltar, whether it be better with regard to our Parliamentary system or for social reforms or whatever...That is why we are going out there and asking the people what their personal views are. I know what I want, I could write you a wish list right here, but what does everybody else want?
Llanito World said at the outset: "I believe that, in reality, the decision of many to vote for one party or another is not such a rationally thought out decision. It is an emotional one."
ReplyDeleteI thought that was an interesting comment and was wondering how it ties in with one thing that struck me about the Panorama poll on 24 May 2010: the geographical distribution.
The GSD only scored more than 50% in only three areas - Brympton / Scud Hill, Lower Town and Montagu - whereas they sank to the 20% range in Laguna, Glacis and Edinburgh Estate / Gib 5.
Conversely the GSLP Libs obtained very high scores of around 70% in Laguna, Glacis and Edinburgh Estate / Gib 5. They also grabbed more than 50% in Flat Bastion Road, Harbour Views and Varyl Begg.
The GSLP Libs only obtained less than 40% in Brympton / Scud Hill, Rosia / Vineyards and Lower Town.
What does this tell us about the Gibraltar of today and how does this tie in with Llanito World's comment about voting being primarily an emotional decision?
PC in Ibiza?????? Just trying to visualise him in one of those 'Manumission' type clubs raving all night long with the Brit Lager Louts Lol !!!!! On second thoughts, nahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh....Max
ReplyDeleteI really do not want this blog to become a message board for people to post their 'wish list' for the PDP manifesto or anyone else's. Any party is welcome to learn from the debate and take up any ideas it wishes but Rebecca please do not hijack the blog or make the debate stilted by asking for ideas for your manifesto. Let the arguments develop.
ReplyDeleteWhat is shameful is that this blog is showing up the deficiencies and failures of Gibraltar's politician and their detachment from and irrelevance to the people of Gibraltar. In fact, it shows up their total failure. More frightening is that it is highlighting failures in Gibraltar of the fourth estate, namely the news media.
I wander how long I will survive in Gibraltar if I carry on being so outspoken.
PT Said....
ReplyDeleteRegarding a comment above, it is true that some of DF's own party collegues voted against him during his presentation of the private members bill regarding sexual age of concent and therefore payed an absolute diservice to him just because they didn't want their vote to be different to that of PC. But it is also true that poeple as "liberaly minded" as Neil Costa and Fabian Picardo should vote agaisnt it is just beyond even someone as conservative as PC who condemed the result after the session in an interview. And if we go into why Felix Alvarez didn't condem the fact that the opposition voted against the introduction of the bill we would have to open a whole new debate. Picardo, Costa and other opposition members betrayed their political principles but Alvarez betrayed his own sexual tendencies and the whole of the gay community, dispicable!!!
Many people now, as it happened with the GSLP in 1996 when they refused to believe it, are openly saying that they'll vote the GSD out.
ReplyDeleteCharles Gomez's post is bang on point. It is the OBVIOUS around us and it is not getting any better.
Caruana's vision for Gibraltar begs many questions now but the final one left for him to answer is: what did he ever mean by 'Gibraltar'?
The GSD's 'Monopoly' and 'Scrabble' games in Gibraltar are over.
It is now "Unscramble" time. Llanito World started it.
PT I take your comments on board. What I find lamentable about this sorry episode is that certain members of our HOA should vote against their consciences! At the end of the day this was not a private members bill on the colour of the curtains at 6 Convent Place.. it sought to address a very serious matter.
ReplyDeleteThose who voted against should explain their reasons for doing so...I suspect that won't happen though! ...Max
Azoth said
ReplyDeleteI wonder what all these various political players who people in this poll either defend or disparage would do to improve the democratic process? Any takers?
La Roca empezó a perder la "olla" en el año 2000.
ReplyDeleteDesde el año 2004 rumbea al son de las mareas, con un engreimiento de pavo real y con un flotador que se desinfla, día a día, desde el año 2006.
Y, cuando pisa tierras movedizas, coloca su cabeza bien enterrada en la arena y expone un trasero de mona y muy descargador.
Los aplausos no cesan y el teatro, al aire libre, es la maquinaria maravillosa de Gibraltar. Las entradas están cuidadosamente reservadas y las pocas que sobran son de precios encarecidos y de butacas lejanas e incomodas.
El vecino, doblado de risa, se tapa la boca para evitar descaros, y con gran disimulo más espectáculo obtiene. El gran ausente, y desde la gran distancia, otorga licencias para el despilfarro y más, si ese Dios quiere, de todo.
La locura, lujosa y amarga, en tierra firme clava sus pies y en lo más alto de la Roca ondea, sin pudor, su bandera conquistadora de un solo nombre y color en el 2010.
Oscureciendo y tapando el día, precipita la noche oscura y sin luna, matando un nuevo amanecer.
GABRIEL GIBRALTAR LORCA
W T F ?
ReplyDeleteDidn't this guy get shot in the Spanish Civil War??....Max
ReplyDeleteRebecca at 10.29 has unwittingly revealed just how lacking in ideas her party the PDP is. They want to make up for their lack of passion and imagination by asking people what they want - desperately looking for a band wagon to jump on. The PDP makes the GSLP, the Liberals and even the GSD seem avant garde and vibrant. PDP: "nul points" I am afraid.
ReplyDeleteDarren McBrush says: why does the PDP bother? If they have not even discussed the need for an audit to quell speculation about government property deals what the blazes do the PDP do in their committee meetings? This is the ISSUE it affects everything else that is happening now in Gibraltar. So, for example, apart of the damage done to the poltical system by the "speculation" if precious land assets have been missold that affects the economy, quality of life, leisure and so on. The PDP must be very lacking in the brain compartment of they do not realise this. I hope for their sake that they don't turn up at my door to ask for my suggestions.
ReplyDeleteSpirit...You may (or may not) know more about this than me! I fail to see why control freak PC would allow a private members bill on a subject he is clearly uncomfortable with...Or are you suggesting that the whole thing was a charade in order to put the issue to bed??
ReplyDeleteIn the unlikely event that you are right, that would call into question the integrity of the entire HOA....Cuckoo land is not a place I'm familiar with Spirit, so tell me about it!!...Max
Furthermore Spirit....Can you explain why the gay community could be happy with the outcome or why Opposition members voted against the bill ?? Surely this was their opportunity to put ultra-conservative PC in his place?? Or am I barking up the wrong tree??...Max
ReplyDeleteHey lads, you're all going off-topic again. This thread is about the swing to the GSLP Libs. Age of consent debate was last week. And let's give poor Rebecca a break, shall we. At least she's got the courage to post under her own name and to pin her colours to the PDP mast openly - unlike others who merely slag off anything anyone says that they don't agree with without offering any sort of cohesive argument.
ReplyDeleteAs I keep saying, the PDP will all lose their deposits except Keith next year but the GSD will disintegrate when Peter Caruana eventually leaves politics - just as the AACR did in their time - and that could be sooner than we think. Sure Isaac Marrache and John Piris tried to revive the AACR but that adventure was very short lived. The point is that if the PDP keeps going it will be in pole position in the next few years to take over from the GSD as one of the two main parties in Gibraltar.
So the swing to the GSLP Libs mentioned by Llanito World in the topic to this thread could indicate, in my view, that the GSD is on its way out. I liked the Labour Party at the time of the 2003 elections and thought that they could have been the party to take over eventually as the second main party. That's why I was so disappointed that they capitulated so easily and sold their souls to the GSD - at least the few that moved over in the so-called 'merger'.
A lot appear to have either gone back to their natural GSLP home or do not currently belong to any party but are averse to voting GSD. So I think that the swing can be explained by a number of factors: 1. demographics as Llanito World has rightly pointed out; 2. GSLP votes being swelled by both disaffected former-Labour-Party returnees and by those who have not returned but are repulsed by the 'merger' with the GSD; 3. the visceral or emotional effect - people are returning to voting along clearer 'class' lines as shown by the fairly clear demarcations in the Panorama poll outlined above; 4. the GSD have been in power far too long and people are desperate for change.
Unlike the GSLP the GSD does not have a natural block vote so defeat at the next election could signal the beginning of the end for the GSD. That would leave the field clear for the PDP so long as they keep going and do not become disheartened. Keith seems to have the experience and staying power to keep going for the long haul.
RE: Anon 18.10
ReplyDeleteI find it hypocritical that people whine and complain that the current Govt doesn't inform the public on the decision making and how the voice of Gibraltar is not heard... and then they have the cheek to accuse those who actually do ask the populous what they want as lacking "passion and imagination".
P. Off: To Anon 20.25: the word is "populace" not "populous" . Forgetting poor old Rebecca for the moment the PDP want to know what the populace want, do they? It's as if the members of the executive of the PDP live in some far away metropolis and want to visit the blighted natives: "do you speaka my language?" Frankly the PDP are tyros who lack any the attributes that would allow them to patronise the Gibraltarians. Even the arrogant Peter Caruana has never behaved in such a condescending manner but then again PC has intelligence and savvy.
ReplyDeleteHi Mark......I beg to differ, but the age of consent issue is in my view totally relevant to this debate.
ReplyDeleteIt demonstrates that PC and his foot soldiers are totally out of touch with reality and the electorate (particularly the younger ones) are finally realising that!!
Gibraltar cannot be governed in an outdated 'puritanical' manner (sorry religious righties!)and I believe that the swing in the polls is at least partly explained by a backlash against this 'holier than thou' nonsense!!
It's 2010, not 1910....Some of our politicos need to wake up n smell the coffee!!....Max
LOL at anon 21:23
ReplyDeleteGrow up will you it's a spelling mistake, we all make them ;)
Besides are you really proposing that the people of Gibraltar should not have a say in the running of Gibraltar? Isn't that known as hubris?
Anon said;
ReplyDeleteMax... you are certainly barking at the wrong tree. Precisely because Caruana is a control freak he would not allow a private members bill to go ahead if it had not all, been planned. The opposition has nothing to do with it.
By the way cuckoo land is a place where you flap your wings, take things at face value and believe everything that is thrown at you.
Furthermore Max I will explain......the opposition took a motion committing the parliament to equalisation on the age of consent, but asking for wider consultation before taking a decision on what that age of consent should be. (Is this not democratic?) This was rejected by Caruana who instead got Danny Boy to proceed with the bill which, he, Caruana voted against. The vote was: four Ministers in favour, three Ministers against and three Ministers absent from the house. Should something as serious as this be decided by only four people? Is this democratic I ask you once again? The opposition voted against because they had a different policy. I know what happend because I was there, it's free to sit in the gallery. Spirit.
Spirit...You still haven't said why you think the gay community are happy about this and I can't see why 'wider consultation' should be required on an issue that just requires a measure of common sense!
ReplyDeleteSo you believe that PC sanctioned this and allowed DF a 'free reign' to go it alone in the knowledge that his party would be divided on the issue????????????? I find that hard to believe....wings flapping!! Max
Anonymous said...
ReplyDeleteMax I am Spirit but not the Holy Spirit. I do not know everything. If you check what I have written you will realise that I have never said that the gay community are happy or unhappy. You have every right to believe what you want. Spirit.
Heads we win, heads we loose. We keep the church happy and we keep the gay community happy.This just shows how cold and calculating the GSD ...........Spirit,your words and I rest my case pisha!!! Max
ReplyDeleteAnon said:
ReplyDeleteBy "We keep the church happy and the gay Community happy" I meant, that it's what the GSD believed according to my sources. And by the way Max do not be so machista I am a chochi. Spirit.
Spirit...Had no idea that you were a lady...My apologies for sounding (inadvertently) machista!!....Good debate!! Max
ReplyDeleteAnon 30 May 18.10 (can't you use a pseudonym, at least?) knocking PDP for knocking on doors to sound out opinions. Must be GSD activist afraid of losing votes to the PDP.
ReplyDeleteBut I disagree: that's precisely what all parties ought to do. They should come to our homes on a regular basis to seek our opinions. That is the only way they can find out what's really going on in Gib. Not by staying holed up in their little Ministerial office 5 to 9 and going off to Sotoland or wherever on weekends.
Assuming they remain true to their word, I applaud the PDP for henceforth going door to door on a regular basis throughout the year - and not just once every four years when they want your vote. I look forward to putting forward my views when they visit me.
Well done, Keith, Gigi, Rebecca etc. Keep going, do not give up and you could in the next few years become the second major party when the GSD runs out of steam and eventually goes the way of the AACR.
"Populace" not "populous". OK fine - but also "barking up - not at - the wrong tree". Surprising coming from Spirit who I suspect might be a Chronic journalist. Our collective English will hopefully improve with our daily dose of the Llanito World blog.
But describing Caruana as a "control freak"! Careful, he might have someone monitoring this blog and the Chronic is in enough trouble as it is.
Maximus
Good possible fifth reason for shift.
Anon 13:39
ReplyDelete"Must be GSD activist afraid of losing votes to the PDP."
I don't buy into that theory, that if someone is "knocking" you they obviously perceive you as to be a threat. I'm sure there are a million other reasons why one may "knock" someone else - dislike for example, for humour, to pass the time etc etc.
I'm not however saying that the GSD won't lose votes to the PDP, I do believe that the PDP will do a lot better this time around.
Also I sincerely hope my spelling is correct, for I wouldn't want to be told off now would I.
Finally whats that saying about assumption..?
I have said before and I will say it again give Keith 10 or 15 years and he will be elected to parliament.
ReplyDeleteLW sorry if you thought I was hijacking your blog??? I didn't ask for ideas for our manifesto, where on earth did you draw that from??
ReplyDeleteAnyway, it may seem a tad old-fashioned to you all but going door-to-door and visiting people face-to-face is the way political parties have been campaigning for years. Why do you all think it's so weird?
I dread knocking on any of your doors, you all seem intent on slamming them right in my face (apart from the lovely Mark of course). Uphill struggle? Fine by me, bring it on...
Hi Rebecca_
ReplyDeleteNo problem, it is just that I prefer you to give your views rather than to ask for the views of others, which gives the impression you want ideas from to develop your party's policies. You are welcome to use the information you read here as you wish but asking is one step too far in my view.
Hi Robert:
ReplyDeleteI can see where the misundersatanding is now, this is what I wrote:
"That is why we are going out there and asking the people what their personal views are. I know what I want, I could write you a wish list right here, but what does everybody else want?"
The 'everybody else' I am referring to here is the 'man on the street', so to speak, and not the posters on this blog. I was not calling on all you guys to start writing down your wish lists so I could use them in a PDP manifesto!
Are we clear now?
Hi Rebecca
ReplyDeleteNo problem!
Rebecca....You know I've been there n got the T-shirt!.. It's a bloody hard struggle and I don't envy you.....Best of luck though...Max
ReplyDeleteIf Spirit called Max machista for calling her pisha, that is assuming that she was a man without thinking for one moment that she could be a woman. What should we call Rebecca who for the secomd or third time keeps on saying "You guys out there" what is it Rebecca you think you are the only woman that can express political ideas (if any) ? Or is it that your flattery for eg to Annon "harness that passionate emotion and use it to it's full potential by standing for election next year." or " the lovely Mark" only works with men? Or is it that your only interested in men voters? Slim favour you do your gender. And to conclude, even at the risk of being repetitive. "Flattery is like eau-de-cologne to be smelt but not swallowed"' ......OSCAR
ReplyDelete"Guys" is an all-encompassing expression covering both genders is it not? Okay, it is a bit American I admit.
ReplyDeleteSorry 'you lot' out there for my seeming sexist and writing in a foreign language.
How do you know that Mark and Anon are men anyway? They may be women pretending to be men.
Hi, I have been following this forum for a while and have picked up the nerve to finally comment. As most other debating websites, especially those related with Gibraltarian politics, it was only a matter of time before this blog also became infected with the ‘partisan’ bug. Thus one can witness this character-bashing, which in my opinion demonstrates the nefarious and ugly side of politically polarised minds. Firstly, my congratulations to Robert for a very good and needed blog and secondly hats-off to those of you with the guts to provide your identity, in a Gibraltar where political witch-hunts do not exist (but do really).
ReplyDeleteWithout further detraction – (A) Financial audit: This is a matter for the opposition to raise at the House of Assembly and further more, it also remains the responsibility for the elected opposition to raise awareness of a need for said audit amongst its electorate. I hear very little with regards to this issue when I rub shoulders with my fellow llanitos. Thus, if anything it demonstrates the opposition’s shortcomings with regards to this issue, or perhaps that we might not need or want one. Thus instead of slamming Rebecca might it not be better to quiz the elected opposition and its inactions.
(B) Shift towards a GSLP/Liberal alliance: I belong to a generation that is literally caught between a rock and a hard place. Being relatively young (mid thirties) I witnessed Gibraltar during the GSLP years and block voted the GSD (in 1999 if I am not mistaken) because I wanted change. I want the same change now because I am fed up with a Gibraltar that has resulted from several years of inaptitude and lack of planning. Problem is who do I vote for? Although I have always subscribed to the idea that block-voting was the way to go (could not give you a reason why), I am now left only with the option of voting for individuals from all three parties.
PS. Visiting the electorate to sound out their needs is certainly admirable and thus Mr. Azzopardi gets one of my votes.
Tin Tin ..
ReplyDeleteMay I say with Rin Tin Tin se te ve el plumero.
Catian Haddock writes: Dear Tin Tin: Your contribution really does take the full biscuit tin for fuzzy thought. You write under pseudonym (you are clearly not Herge's cartoon character) but accuse others who do not disclose their names of being gutless. You suggest that even if there happens to be corruption of the 1st degree (which I am not for one moment saying that there is) it is up to the elected opposition to point it out and if they don't then the PDP does not need to be concerned. Finally you say that if a politician knocks at your door you will vote for him because that is admirable and regardless of the politician's policies, ideas, behaviour etc. Finally to camouflage your membership of the PDP you misspell your Dear Leader's name!
ReplyDeleteWell done, Keith, Gigi, Rebecca and all of the members of the PDP. You have my vote. I could not care less what your policies are or whether you are capable of running Gibraltar and fending off the Brits and the Spanish when they next turn nasty or whether Keith will run for cover at the first sign of aggro. I do not give a hoot that none of you can spell Azopardi and that your statments are soporific and banal. at least you are not oily like Piqui or nasty like Pete and that is good enough for me.Well done, Keith, Gigi, Rebecca and all of the members of the PDP.
ReplyDeleteHow wonderfully paranoid...
ReplyDeleteObviously some of you are more interested in guessing the identity of the contributors than the content of their posts...how laughable. I do think it is gutless to slam someone under anonimity. I would never reveal my indentity on a forum as I think one does himself a diservice, especially in Gib. My hats off, as I said before with those who have the guts to do so. I don't, neither do you for that matter.
As I said, I will not be block voting, but voting for the best from all three parties.
Anon said..
ReplyDeleteIt may be an all encompansing expression in N.america but in my land it is colloquial for a fellow.
Anon on 28th May 09:03 uses the expression "But facts are facts even if we are brothers" and Mark is a man's name so I have to assume that he is a man. Anyway by using your same criteria in questioning their gender I could question for eg.if some people have two identities the real and the anonymous, but that is too convoluted.
Oscar
Tin Tin....If you block voted the GSD for 'change'that would surely have been in in 1996 and not 1999????....Max
ReplyDeleteMark and Anon....I got it wrong with Spirit!!...Is Rebecca right? Max
ReplyDeleteHi People:
ReplyDeleteCan we get back on topic please? ... Or I will have to edit out comments and I do not like having to do that.
Sorry RV....just having a bit of a laugh!! Max
ReplyDeleteBy the way....(and getting back on topic) I think the lack of posts in support of PC does speak volumes!!! Max
ReplyDeleteAqui viene mucha gente de pitorreo, que si Picardo es un pegote que Azopardi y sus seguidores son unos aburridos y el Caruana un sieso manio. Yo estoy con Mr. Carlo Gomez que escribio hace unos dias que debemos fijarnos mas en los meritos de nuestra gente, que somos pocos y tememos muchos enemigos adentro y afuera de Gibraltar. Un poco de cachondeo de los enteraos y enteras que tenemos de politcos y politiquillos no esta mal pero los asuntos que afectan a Gibraltar tienen que tomarse en serio.
ReplyDeleteFred says:
ReplyDeleteEso, eso, un poco de seriedad.
Asi que irse todo al posting the la policia and put your penny's worth in, or are you all so delighted with the standard of law enforcement and public prosecutions that you'd rather continue nattering about yourselves?
Fred that subject scares me. The law scares me although I have never been on the wrong side of the law. But you see so many injustices around you,you know of so many things which are wrong, but you do not dare speak about. I do not want to offend anyone but the truth is that only those with a lawyer in the family can say what they want. The moment you open your mouth you are threatend with a libel action ,and most of us can not afford a lawyer. They say that with the truth you can go any were but that is just fairy tale. I have seen peoples lifes nearly destroyed by being truthful.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous at 22:14-
ReplyDeleteWell that means I do not stand a chance but I believe that we live in a free territory with the rule of law and human rights enshrined in the Constitution, so I intend to carry on writing. I accept, though, that I do have the benefit of being a lawyer.
Anon 21.17.....Lighten up pisha (or chochi!!)...Los mensajes son serios....pero, if we can't have a laugh too (y que mal hay en eso??) that would be very aburrido!!! Max
ReplyDeleteFred says:
ReplyDeleteAnon 22:14, there is something in the
manner in which have written your post that has made me go a bit cold. Perhaps because it has the ring of sad truth to it.
The problem is that if there is no truth and justice then all we are left with is the single choice of dominating or been dominated in brutish ways. It may be satisfying than the hypocrisy we inhabit.
Ghost says: PartI
ReplyDeleteRobert, I go away for a few days and you write one of your best pieces! I can only assume that this debate is not over, given the volume of comments that I see you have stirred. For my part you are spot on, politics in Gibraltar has always and will always be primarily an emotional affair. There could be no other way given our size and the advanced democratic society in which we live in today. As a small community that we are, there is almost no choice in the matter, the issues are always close to home, the politicians are normally always personally known. It’s the closeness of the community and the passion and pride that all Gibraltarians have toward our home that creates the emotion. It is in fact this emotion that has without question steered us through some very difficult times and has almost always resulted in the betterment of Gibraltar. I think it was Peter Montegriffo who said that we live in a community in which pretty much everyone had the same aspirations for Gibraltar, and it remains quite astounding that regardless of this we tear ourselves into two halves politically as opposed to creating a more conducive political atmosphere in which party politics can still prosper with all the checks and balances that we demand of it (or words to that effect). I think this is supported by the fact that on every crucial moment in our political history, which have mostly resulted in referendums, all outcomes have had a 99% + consensus - emotional or what! We may well have reached a point where emotionally or not, most people may simply struggle with the notion of voting for the GSD in its present form or any other; I have argued before that it borders on the undemocratic to have a party in power for so long. The concern here lies with our emotional need with that classic sound bite “time for change”, for the sake of change, against the real issues that underpin our future. I have to say that I struggle with this in a big way; I acknowledge that the GSD has been in power too long, but having said that the growth and stability that has been created has (if you are honest) surpassed all expectations. I like most of you seek change, quite apart from the fact that it is healthy it is required… but at what cost though. I am yet to see the leadership that is required to lead our community and continue to take it forward from the GSLP.
Ghost says: PartII
ReplyDeleteI have voted for Joe Bossano and I consider him to be un fuera de serie, like Sir J and PC. However, do we really consider his best moments to be that of holding on to the leadership of the GSLP for so long that our youth now consider him to be change? Is this really the change that we seek? It is proven that Gibraltar require strong leadership with arrogance I might add, I am afraid that examples like the turnaround on the constitution, the spin that we hear on the Cordoba agreements, the Community Care payments and many other issues have led to an opposition with only one agenda, that of simply getting Caruana out of power at all cost. The proposed successor whom I consider to be a truly bright character with all the trimmings to be a great leader has chosen to remain quiet in order to acquire the rights to the 35% - let’s face it, that is why we are waiting patiently…but I ask myself and you I guess, is this the type of leadership that we are seeking? Would it not have been right for Joe Bossano to have stepped down in 1997 as most ex-leaders do (in any democracy) and allow new blood to check the new beast and failing that should we not at least see the makings of the new leader in his quest to convince not just his party but all of us that he is the right man for the job? There is no doubt that the next election will inevitably be driven by how long the GSD has been in power; unfortunately it will not be geared by the true abilities of each party including the PDP. Our emotional fix can and should be one with an element of logic and sense behind it and whereas I see failings in the GSD which I think Robert rightly attributes to a change within the party which it is so desperately needs, I think there are serious issues that require attention with regards to what it is that the electorate wants in this change driven by emotion and whether the GSLP is at this stage capable of delivering this and underpinning the work that has so far been achieve. Corny as it is, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, well maybe a tweak or two:)
Cheers
Ghost.
I first voted at the 96 election and have voted GSD since, bar the last election, when I was so dissappointed and disenchanted with everything that I took the wrong decision not to vote!
ReplyDeleteThis coming election I will be voting - probably be the first in line when polling stations open. The GSD Government have done great things for Gibraltar over the years, but its time for change.
The GSD Goverment has beocme "dictatorial" in nature with PC taking EVERY DECISION no matter hwo petty, and every Civil Servant knows this to be true. Top Civil Servants are being paid HUGE salaries to take decisions and perform in their role, but most are just acting as mere puppets, choosing to remian quiet for "FEAR" of going against the decisions taken by the Chief Minister. The Chief's shouts and abuse toward the few that offer "genuine and valid ideas" are well known. Those who dare to contradict the decisions taken by the CM on the basis that they are professionals within their fields and can offer a more VALID decision / opinion than the CM are few, and are rarely invited to No6 for Technical meetings relating to their fields.
Gibraltar, the GSD has done a lot of good. But they have been in power too long, and it seems to have gone to their heads. They walk around as if they OWN Gibraltar!!! GIBRALTAR, WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE - Change is Good! And if we don't like the next ones in, we vote them out after 4 years - its easy!
Albert said:
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ghost. We do not know who will lead the GSLP at the next election. Leaders of parties set much of the agenda and leaders can lose or win elections. That is a reality. PC is tried and tested. His leadership is not in question. I am still not sure who will lead the GSLP and how the alliance with the Liberals will pan out. More importantly whether any new leader of the GSLP will survive close political scrutiny. Unless of course what we are saying is that even if Tony Blair made a come back as leader of the GSLP they would win because the tide has turned into a Sunami.
Albert....Blair wouldn't even qualify to be included in our electorate so I think we can discount that possibility!! PC may be 'tried and tested' but is showing signs of losing the plot....I am not sure what you suggest by talking about about surviving 'close political scrunity'...How many of the current incumbents would pass that test totally unscathed ? (Apart from PC who is of course perfect!!!)...Max
ReplyDeleteGhost says:
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 21:13 makes some valid points, some slightly amplified but valid nonetheless. I think that any leader, any successful leader that is, will inevitably be arrogant and single minded - it goes with the territory...you get the right one and you end up in good shape, you get the wrong one and you end up with the threat of direct rule.......sorry that was a cheap jibe, but I had to say it. I agree we need change, I think that even PC agrees we need change - at what cost though? This election will be about many things; but by far the most important will be the electorates ability to stand up and say WE DESERVE A BETTER OPPOSITION! Able to check GOVT and create intelligent counter balances in parliament that can hopefully lead to the betterment our society, that is progressive, able to be critical whilst also providing solutions and most importantly an Opposition that does not resort to scaremongering such as that which we have seen with the constitution, Cordoba and most recently the Community Care fund. I actually believe that many members of the opposition are capable of this and I also believe that the Great Joe Bossano and I refer to "great" with regard to JB's relentless defence of Gibraltar in the 70's and 80's and 90's in which his work led to the belief that we deserve more and his core supporters in my opinion were instrumental in this too. But I say again and ask again, is it Peter Caruana that we need change from here or should we be seeking better politics across the board and in doing so, should we not be raising questions on what it is about this change that excites us all so much. anonymous 21:13 makes an interesting and obvious observation in that change is good and we should vote for the GSLP because of it; if it goes wrong we vote them out in 4 years (interesting that you make reference to it going wrong already)...change is required, but at what cost. I have asked this many times, do we really consider the GSLP in its current state, to be the change that we very strive for?
Ghost out..:)
pd says :
ReplyDeleteFor those who only speak about what Bossano let happen why don't you complain that Caruana is letting it happen ? 34 million comes from tobbaco .. i highly doubt people in Gibraltar smoke so much that it will come out of their ears. Conclusion : smuggling is still happening - more than ever infact. It might be done more discreatly as launches aren't used as much, but it is still happening and caruana is just doing the same so if you blame one party and say " you can't forgive them for what they did" you can't be willing to vote for another which is doing the same. Also Aquamarine the GSLP does not only have goals for the pensions, they want to do much more. another thing - The only thing mr PC does is spend money on building expensive houses which no one can afford!
Evening Ghost. I posted the anon comment at 21:13 that you make reference to in your posting.
ReplyDeleteUnfortuanteluy I am not sure whether the GSLP is "ready" to come back into power, or whether they are the change that gibraltar needs. Unfortuunately we DO NEED a change. In view of the current political system it seems that if we are going to get any change it HAS TO BE the GSLP since the PDP for all their good intentions, are out of the race!
I do not want to get into politics. I simply want Democracy to RETURN to my Homeland. I want a Government and not a One-Man Band. The GSD have clealry derailed and there is no chance PC will decentralise power should he come in for a further term.
So in my opinion, although it is for the wrong reasons, I will be voting GSLP. I am not already pessimistic about them failing, my previous post states "IF we feel they do not perform, we just get rid of them in 4 years time". It will be easier to get rid of someone who has been in power for 4 years, than one that could potentially be in power for almost TWENTY years. Furthermore, the SAME party in power for TWENTY Years??? Definitely NOT HEALTHY!
I keep hearing the same comments over and over again...'Need for change' but have the Opposition learnt from their mistakes? All Governments make mistakes and on a global scale those committed locally would be seen as trivial!!
ReplyDeleteIt would, I assume, be safe to suppose that certain 'Anon' posters believe that the AACR and GSD were/are infallible?? C'mon guys!! I hate to keep repeating myself, but if you REALLY want change then there is only one option available.
I am not for one moment suggesting that change, purely for the sake of it, is the right way to go but surely it is time to give another Party a chance to put things right.
The current Opposition (after 14 years in the doldrums)must now be ready to get on with the job that's required....A continuation of the current 'one man state' is in my humble view not healthy for our democracy....Others may beg to differ....Max
Ghost... What do you mean by "holding on to the leadership of the GSLP" as far as I know, Joe Bossano is the only leader of a political party here in Gib who stands for election in a General Meeting every two years for the post of leader.If he has never been challenged it must be that most of his members are happy with him. The only one openly wanting his post was D.Feetham and he did not want to risk challenging him he wanted to be crowned, " sin pegar un sello" like we llanis say.
ReplyDeleteYou say that Gibraltar requires an arrogant leader
Do you know what arrogant means? Aggressively assertive or presumptous. Overbearing. I think most of us do not want a leader like that.
If you really followed politics instead of listening to GSD propaganda you would know that Joe Bossano gave a commitment to the British Government that he would not campaign for a NO vote on the condition that they put back the reference to Self Determination that they had taken out. At first they said they would put it back after the Referendum, this was made public in a letter by Jack Straw. The opposition rejected this. When Jeff Hoon came to Gibraltar he agreed to put it back.The opposition then adhered to the commitment given to the British Government.All this should be common knowledge as it has come out in public.
The Cordoba agreement has two important points....
Point 1. Showing our passport to the police in La Linea before getting into the aircraft to get to Madrid. This will only happen if there are flights to Madrid once the terminal is finished. Flights will be treated as
internal Spanish flights.
Point 2. Once the terminal is finished the contract to run the terminal has to be given to a company which is 50% Spanish owned even if there are no flights to Spain. This is no spin they are facts in the agreement.
On the question of Community Care, right now at this moment in time there is not one penny of the 60 million that had been left in reserve by the GSLP administration (money which Caruana had promised not to touch when he got into power) since Community Care has no reserves he will have to put in the budget of the government the money to pay for this year's Community Care, otherwise he will be hanged, drawn and quartered by the pensioners.
Dear Ghost... I could go on and on all night correcting all your misconceptions but it's late and tomorrow we must work. I would also like to tell you that all this has been well researched and they are all facts which you yourself can check.
Spirit.
Ghost.. que te repite hijo , ya te hemos calao GSD hasta el hueso... sorry you have no bones. Eres un fantasma pero un fantasma de verdad.
ReplyDeleteGhost says:
ReplyDeleteSpirit, thank you for your kind response. We clearly interpret things very differently and whereas I have noted your points, my view is that JB's long presence as leader of the GSLP is not in the best interests of Gibraltar - this is not to say that I do not respect or value his huge efforts in the past, but surely even you can recognize that he would best serve this community as a think tank / advisor and allow change to come through the GSLP. The fear is that the core 35% that the GSLP has, may be diluted further given the concerns on whether FB can gain the support of the party let alone the electorate...I think it's a tough one and all I am stating is that the GSLP would be best served as would the community if they played real politics and not base their continued existence on one man with 35%; but rather seek to take some risks and show the community that they are capable of taking tough decisions for the good of Gibraltar. Apologies for repeating myself again...clearly in this instance its required, but I have a distinct feeling that we are destined to agree to disagree.
Cheers
Ghost
Honney Bee says...
ReplyDeleteGhost... Hoy te estan dando duro, y yo tambien vengo con martillito !
I entirely agree with your assesment that JB`s long presence as leader has not been in the best interests of Gib - it`s been more about ego than anything else. I can`t for the life of me understand why at some point someone did not sit him down and whilst respectfully acknowledging the huge contribution that he has made, explain that it`s time to make way.
But by the same token and given the recent poll results together with the many comments left on this blog - would you not agree that exactly the same could be said of our present CM ?? If we are talking of Gibraltar`s interest (and indirectly the parties interests) should the GSD`s exec not be looking at a new leader as the `change` and regeneration that they so desperately need ? Or is it that ousting a leader - a la Tony Blair - is not the done thing here in Gib even when that leader has become a liability to the party ?
Ghost ...
ReplyDeleteYou are right that maybe we have to agree to disagree. My analysis is that JB has been like a mother to the party. YES, A MOTHER, because mothers are in 90% of the cases the ones' that keep the family together. This man has fought to keep the party going in victory and defeat. Why? I think because of the dogma of the GSLP which is the defence of Gibraltar and it's people. He genuinely wants the party to continue after he has gone. Unlike other leaders who the thought of the party doing well after they no longer lead it is an
anathema (although they would not admit it in public). I think the man's brain is so sharp and clear, so much information must be stored in his head that to put him out to pasture or in a think tank would be a crime.
FP is being clever he knows the party does not take well to those who try to undermine their leader whom they love and respect.You know Ghost, I have seen men,obviously party men hug and kiss their leader. I tell you it's quite a sight , it impressed me.
I am sure that if JB said he was standing down as leader next year he will do so,not only that he will help th next leader of the GSLP to win the elections.
Spirit
Albert said:
ReplyDeleteWell actually Honney Bee someone did tell JB that his presence as leader was not in the best interests of Gib. It was Max (yes Max!) and his friends who told him in 2001 that if he lost the 2003 election he should step down as leader. That is why they all left the GSLP. PC has not lost an election yet. Don't you think there is a big difference? Anyway even if PC were replaced by Feetham, people like Max would not vote GSD even with his erstwhile leader at the helm! What an irony! Montegriffo would also not be palatable to most of you because of his pro-Spanish leanings. PC is TODAY irreplaceable to the GSD.
Why is it that the GSD supporters want JB to go? Is it not strange? What is it, that they are so kind hearted that they want the GSLP to have a new leader so that they can win the elections. Or is it that their leader's greatest wish for a landslide victory like the one Bossano got in 1992 with a 70% has never been possible with the stable 35%, come rain or shine of the GSLP. Or is it that they are hopeing and praying that JB goes and the new leader lacks that support?
ReplyDeleteRaro, Raro, Raro.
Albert is givng the wrong information to Honney
ReplyDeletebee. Max used to be Danny boy seven years ago in the Vox or New People, but this Max is not the old Max I am sure. Those who left the GSLP did not in a million year tell JB to to step down if he lost the 2003 elections they left because they all wanted to be candidates and this they thought they could only achieve with Danny Boy as leader.
Memory.
Albert 19.40....An interesting analysis from someone who clearly has his facts a little 'clouded' by GSD tinted specs and a seemingly slavish admiration for PC!!
ReplyDeleteI don't, and never would, presume to speak for any of the others who (with me)left the GSLP all those years ago.From a purely personal point of view I can say that my motivation for 'moving' was borne out of frustration at what I then perceived to be a reluctance to modernise the party.
We can of course only now speculate on what might (or might not) have happened if changes in the GSLP slate had come sooner rather than later. Would PC have been in power for 14 years?? I doubt it!!
Would I vote GSD if DF was it's Leader?? Only I know the answer to that,so speculate as much as you want Albert!!!
I do agree with you on one point though Albert..'PC is TODAY (precisely 03/06/10) irreplaceable to the GSD'... and woe betide any of his colleagues who may think otherwise!!!....Come election time we will see if you are still right!!!!!!!...Max
I can not understand this obsession with GSD supporters of trying to get rid of JB. We in the GSLP do not care who your leader is. We want him out of government but who you choose as your leader is your business. Tan malo va ha ser Enero como Febrero.
ReplyDeleteGhost says:
ReplyDeleteGuys this is awesome stuff - I actually think there's a lot of middle ground here; there's also a great deal of pride that invariably may cloud vision. Honeybee what makes you think that PC actually has any desire to go on and on and on? The reality is that there a few people with the abilities that PC has (like it or not) and the skills required to negotiate and secure Gib the position that it currently enjoys. Like PC, JB and Sir J were also able (to a point) to lead Gibraltar into new territory. Our status today is on a different level to anything that we could have imagined 10 years ago. i am by no means saying that because of this we ought to stand easy and ignore the fact that change is required and is good (I have said this more than once now), I am merely reflecting on the fact that our logic for voting should be based principally on who we feel can best deliver stability and growth and not be led blindingly by a call for change that quite clearly (to date) shows no sign of leading in the best interests of Gibraltar. i do not accept that PC has any intention of staying in power any more than is required; I say required because at this stage (and this really sounds hard core GSD support - it's not) there is quite literally no one showing any clear vision for Gibraltar other than PC. Be honest and consider what has been achieved and where we stand as a community today. After 14 years there are bound to be mistakes and we are no doubt eagerly waiting for change, we may still get it, but it might not necessarily be in the form of the GSLP......
Ghost
Albert said:
ReplyDeleteQue cara tienes Max. Cuantas vezes le dijiste ha JB que se tenia que ir en el New People? Modernisation my a..se. And even if that were true, what modernisation is there in a party that is still led by the same guy since 1980, who has lost 4 or 5 elections? As for the GSD no one wants PC to leave and no one stands a better chance of winning the next election so I dont understand your comment "woe betide any of his colleagues who may think otherwise!!!". If you have any other info say so openly.
Albert said:
ReplyDeleteSorry Ghost pero no te comprendo. Who is eagerly awaiting change and what change are you talking about porque me tienes un poco liao. What is important is that PC will lead the GSD at the next election. By contrast JB says he will not lead the GSLP but many don't believe him. Even if it were true we don't even know who will lead the GSLP yet!!!!!!
Albert mi alma, no te enteras de na, to te enteras al reves. Put your specs on mate, or else we will have to pack up and go.As to winning the next elections turu ru turu ru.
ReplyDeleteAlbert and Ghost enough?
ReplyDeleteAlbert...Yo tengo cara?? I am surprised that you as a (supposed!) GSD fanatic were an avid reader of the NP!! PC would not approve of that Albert!!
ReplyDeleteYour motives now seem 'dubious' to say the least and I really wonder why you should speech in such disparaging terms about a serving Minister of the Party you apparently adore!!!!!
I can categorically say that I am a Sociliast, have always been one, and always will be!! You seem to be a charlatan who has a 'seperate' agenda...I suspect that your name is not Albert and you are ploughing your own furrow....Know what I mean!!!!!!!!!!....Max (n proud of it !!)
RV.....I suspect that the spirit world guys are just that!!....sad!! Max
ReplyDeleteMax..... Are you using the American guy or the colloquial British guy? If you are using the British it's ok. If not I feel you might be including me in the sad spirit world, pleaase don't. I have a very good sense of humour
ReplyDeleteand I am a happy person. I just enjoy research and I like comments to be factual or at least to be a first hand experience.
Spirit.
OK...the British one... Here I go sounding machista again Spirit! Max
ReplyDeleteThank you Max.
ReplyDeleteEnjoy your weekend.
Spirit.